Cosmopolitan Type II

[ETEX]

Just going through my Trans-Mississippi display and was looking at the Cosmopolitan Type II bullet. I just picked up another one for my collection and am curious about the diameter of the Cosmo's Type II. Tom lists a 52 and 54 caliber in his book. The two I have mic out at .505 and .534 caliber. Would like to hear from anyone and everyone that has this bullet in their collection with diameters and dug locations. I have a Arkansas and Louisiana dug Cosmo. Would like any information yall may have to provide.

Michael

[emike123]

Calling that bullet a Cosmopolitan is wrong because a Cosmopolitan is a breechloader and it is clearly for a muzzle loader with the cone cavity.

Mine is just under 0.52" in diameter.

[ETEX]

Yea, Yea, Yea, what shall we call it then. Hmmmmm and EMIKEY

[coonboy]

Ah.......Names .....Tags....      First, I would like to say that I am not adding fuel to the fire--Back in 1972 When I first wrote an article on this super rare minie I ask my good friend in Tennessee if he could help me identify this very unusual minie. I gave him his first example to look at and while it was never intended to infer that it was a carbine minie, Reid told me he would put the tag Cosmopolitan type II on it for the time being. Forty years later the tag Cosmo Type II has attached itself to this super rare minie. I don't know of anyone in Ark. or La. that calls it a 226 or whatever conical. The same stands for the Tom Green Minie which is so identifiable compared to the Tyler minie or Dance and Park tag. My feeling is if you want to refer to them as a 226 conical or a Dance and Park minie or simply unknowns that should be your choice, but you are not wrong or going to jail if you want to call them for identity purposes Cosmos type II and Tom Greens and I bet those names will stick around for years to come. Also, if you are fortunate to have both of these in your collection you are very lucky.Coonboy

[emike123]

Forgot to mention, my Minie of this non carbine variety is from Prairie Grove.

Do you really think they were made in two calibers?

[emike123]

I agree with you, Wes!

[ETEX]

Coonboy/Mike/Wes: The question you posed Mike (produced in two calibers?) is one of the reasons I was soliciting the diameter of the Cosmo Type II for those with the bullet in their collection. The diameters appear to range from .505 up to .538 with many of the bullets thought to be associated with one mould that creates the unique flaw in the bullet. I don't believe they were produced for the 52 and 54 calibers either and am looking for differing opinions on this bullet. The Cosmos Type II I have came were the Arkansas Cosmos Type II from Crystal Springs (Hindman's retreat) and the Lousiana from Brushy Creek (DeBray's Texan's).  Terry I appreciate the history of the bullet you dug so long ago and wrote about.

[R. J. in LA]

Terry is correct that you are very fortunate if you have a Tom Green and a Cosmo Type II (or more than 1 of each) in your collection!  I don't have a Cosmo Type II in my Trans-Mississippi group yet but hopefully one day I will.
Terry, I'd love to see a copy of the article you wrote on the Cosmo Type II bullet back in 1972.  Can you send me a private email as to how I can get a copy of that article.  Thanks.

R. J.

[emike123]

Here's mine.  RJ, I have a copy of that article.  If you need it eMail me.

[R. J. in LA]

Thanks Mike, I'm emailing you privately.

R. J.

[emike123]

Here's the article page where the Cosmo Type II is listed as a carbine bullet "used in the Union carbine or Gwyn and Campbell Carbine "  I think Reid knew it came from a late war cavalry engagement site and backwards deduced it to be a .50 caliber carbine bullet as the diameter supports it being for a slightly smaller caliber breechloader. Tough to say as he is no longer with us.

[Jim T]

I agree with these all being for a .54 cal. weapon.

I do not agree with continuing to use an incorrect tag/title/name just because it's well known and accepted by us old farts.  The whole point of research is to learn and pass on that new (and hopefully correct) information to the next generation of collectors.  I think we need to stop being lazy and teach the new collectors properly.

[Skip]

Okay Michael, Wes, Terry, Mike, Jim, R.J. and all. I've resisted staying out of this one simply to avoid the lashing that will undoubtedly ensue. Please be as gentle as possible.
Back in the 1980's I was fortunate enough to dig several of these from two small cavalry camps at Crystal Hill (AR) one of which is featured in Tom Stelma's book. One of the most noticable features of these bullets is that all seemed to be "out of round" to some degree or another.
The way I was taught to measure the diameter of a bullet was to take several different measurements and then take the average. The bullet in Tom's book measured anywhere from .519 to .541 hence an average of .530. The skirts on these bullets are very thin so they are easily distorted. Taking just one measurement in such cases will not neccessarily give you the true dimension of the bullet. I believe they are all .54 caliber.
Now for the beating. I think that this particular projectile was cast in a modified .54 caliber Gardner mold at the Arkadelphia Arsenal. The mold would have been cut off at the base so there would be no excess to crimp. This would explain the shorter base than on a Gardner and the thin skirt. The bullets are of the same shape, they have the same number and type of grooves and both are nosecast... OR the bullet could have been cast and they figured some way to cut off the bottom part that would have been crimped but doing this without deforming the skirt would have been a difficult task.
Granted this is just a theory and there is no written documentation that I know of but it does make sense.
Now for the whipping...

[emike123]

Mine too is slightly out of round and I agree with the base skirt being too thin.  Hence my use of an average measurement of just under 0.52. 

Glad to see you prodded out of lurker status, Skip.  Don't worry, we usually wait until a member's 4th post before ridiculing him on the forum 

Hey, I may be coming to Little Rock and/or Springdale soon so nail down any loose bullets, fuses or shells in the area!

[Daveslem]

Skip,

No bullet expert here, but have to agree with you. Not owning a "Cosmo" I took photos and placed them side by side and blocked off the base of the Gardner and they match. Plausable explanation for the removal of the base, too.  I nominate "Trans-Miss Gardner" as a new name for this beast.

P.S. anyone feeling the need to send me an example of this bullet so I can further Skip's research, feel free to do so.  

Later,
Dave Slemmer