One of the more interesting Mansfield finds...

[emike123]

I like your reasoning.  Not sure what to call the shell or where it was manufactured -- others who have the time may be able to sleuth those elements out -- but these were definitely fired by the South.  There is no record anywhere of the Union using 3.3in guns but we know the Confederates had 3.3in guns engaged at the sites discussed above.

[emike123]

Measured the bolts and the sabotless one is 82mm dia at the bottom and the one with the sabot is 82.2mm across at the iron just above the lead sabot.  82mm = 3.23" so definitely for a 3.3" rifle.

[Pete George]

The 3.3"-caliber rifled cannon which fired Emike's bolt can only have been in Confederate hands. The book referenced by JoeVann says the 3.3" Parrott rifles do not bear the "US" marking of acceptance by the US Ordnance Department. And, as Emike already posted, there is no record of the yankees ever having fielded a 3.3" rifled cannon during the civil war.

I can't envision US Army Captain Dyer designing projectiles for an extremely rare Parrott Rifle that the yankee army never possessed.

  Also of consequence is the fact that this 3.3"-caliber BOLT weighs a mere 10 pounds 3 ounces.  That seems unaccountably lightweight to be a 3.3" Parrott Rifle projectile, because the 2.9"-caliber Parrott Bolts weigh only 5 ounces less, at 9 pounds 14 ounces. 

  The Parrott Rifle's distinctive characteristic breech-reinforcing band makes it capable of firing much heavier projectiles than a non-banded rifle of the same caliber.  Seems like a 3.3" Parrott Rifle, being midway between a 2.9" (10-Pounder) and 3.67" (20-Pounder) Parrott Rifle, would fire a bolt weighing 14 or 15 pounds... not these stubby little 10 pound 3 ounce bolts

  The 3.3" Selma-sabot Bolts, made for use in the CS 3.3" Rifles, none of which were  breech-banded, weigh 11 pounds 1 ounce. That would seem to strongly indicate Emike's stubby 10 pound 3 ounce bolt was also manufactured for use in a CS 3.3" Rifle.

  It should be mentioned that the clearly profit-minded entrepreneur Mr. Parrott was quite zealous in providing his own design of projectile to accompany each caliber of the rifled cannons he produced.

  Also, it was known that a lead sabot was unsuitable for the Parrott Rifle's destinctive gaining-twist rifling ...which is why Captain Dyer's projectiles were not fired from Parrott Rifles -- and there is no 2.9" Dyer for the 10-pdr. Parrott, nor for the 20-pdr, nor 30-pdr.

[joevann]

http://markerhunter.wordpress.com/2010/01/10/3-3-inch-parrott-rifles/

[joevann]

Do any of the Confederate made rifles you mention have 12 grooves?

[joevann]

The bronze 3.3-inch rifles from Leeds of New Orleans had only 5 lands and grooves

[joevann]

Pete, I don't think anyone is trying to infer that this round is anything but Confederate and fired from a gun in the control of Confederate forces.  A.B. Dyer got his idea for lead sabots after visiting England and seeing Bashley Britten's projectiles.  However, the base of this shot more resembles what was used on large caliber Dyer projectiles than on Britten.  Four foundries produced Dyer projectiles for the Union forces and there is no evidence that he received any compensation from either the founders or the government.  He didn't have a patent.  I don't see what would prevent any foundry, North or South, from copying his design.  I don't believe the Confederacy was much concerned about copying whether a patent existed or not.   What I find fascinating is that this shot could have been fired by the Confederacy from a gun made by West Point Foundry in Cold Springs, NY after the commencement of hostilities.  How in the world did the Confederates get their hands on these guns?  Therein lies the mystery and possibly a fascinating tale of intrigue, deception, and maybe treason.

[joevann]

U.S. Dyer bolts for the new members.
John

John, it may be based on Dyer's ideas via a Britten, but it is definitely NOT a U.S.-fired projectile.

[John D. Bartleson Jr.]

      So is everyone sayhing that this is a C.S. Dyer mutant?  I guess our identification system just went down the drain.   I thought the 3.3 inch Parrott rifle you linked in your previous posts was a Federal, Union, Yankee Parrott rifle.
   so please tell me why a bastard 3.3 inch Dyer could not be possiblly be made to fire in the 3.3 Parrott rifle you linked to us?? I give up.
Best Regards,
John

[joevann]

Exactly, John.  These 3.3-Parrotts were used by Confederates, not the Union Forces, although they were manufactured in the North.  Whether this projectile came with the guns or was manufactured in the South is just not known positively.  All I know is it appears to be a Dyer pattern, but fired by the Confederates and there is no record of the U.S. government ever purchasing Dyer pattern bolts or any other ammunition of this caliber, so how can it be U.S.?

[John D. Bartleson Jr.]

Then what shell was normally used in this 3.3 Parrott rifle? To me this is a most confusing post.
John

[joevann]

No idea.  We are all a little confused.

[John D. Bartleson Jr.]

All of yhu said there was no such thing as a 3.3 Parrott but you showed us one in your link.
May I ask just one more dumb question.  Why is everyone convinced that it was being used by confederates? Was anyone there???  Why couldn't it have been used by Union forces.
John

[joevann]

Because all 8 of them so far found have been recorded as captured Confederate pieces when placed in their current locations.

[joevann]

Hmmmmm.  John Bartleson maybe right after all, although this doesn't mention shot:

Transcript:

Sir,

I learned that Mr. Wm. Kemble has written to you respecting the outfit for certain guns & projectiles purchased of me by the Union Committee of the City of New York.

The guns are made to fit the 6 Pdr. Field Carriage & have a Calibre of 3.3 ins. & Have made for them a large number of projectiles of the kind known as Captain Dyer’s.

The agreement which these gentlemen assumed contemplated the use of the “Boorman Fuse”— but in consequence of this fuse being only arranged for 5 seconds & under, it is not applicable to projectiles of so great a range as to re­quire fuses of 10 or more seconds.

In consequence Lt. Benet who was ordered to inspect these articles recom­mended that the shells should be fitted with plain fuse holes for the wood plug & paper fuse. These when tried answered perfectly well, and he was able moreover to put the balls in loose & burst the shell. The recommendation of Lt. B. has been adopted by the Committee & the shells admit of being used either with a suitable bursting charge of powder or one mixed with the bullets.

I have nothing to do with the matter beyond supplying the guns and projec­tiles to the Committee, but as you have been addressed on the subject, am in­duced to give the foregoing explanation. No fitting is required about these shells, more than others.

I am getting on well with the Rifled Guns & projectiles for the Ordnance Dept. as well as the other work. One half of the order for the 10 pdrs & the complement of projectiles are ready & the whole will very soon be done. The 30 Pdrs are all cast & we are making good progress with them.

I have constant evidence of the reli­able character of the guns & projectiles which I am making for the Department; but shall not fail to test them fully and to advise you of all important particu­lars.

With much respect

I am respectfully

R.P. Parrott



http://artillerymanmagazine.com/Archives/2009/parrott_sp09.html