20 pounder question

[Ripcon]

I found the complete nose portion of a 20 pounder shell. It fragmented completely where the body meets the nose leaving the complete nose cone with zinc fuze still attached. In the same area of the battlefield where this fragment was found, a 20 pounder limber chest was destroyed. My question is this - Could this shell have been the result of an external explosion from that limber chest explosion? Is it possible? Has anyone found a fragment like this? Thanks for any info.

[emike123]

Here are two frags from 7" shells that blew up from the outside in.  The rifled copper sabot one is from a location where the Rebs blew up their own magazine.  The nose piece is from where the GBI blew up one of Lawrence Christopher's 7in Dyer shells after his accident.  They were kind enough to give the remnants back to him and I got this piece as a momento.

In short, your frag looks like it coud've been blown up from the outside in, but that said, the odds are against it.

[callicles]

I found the complete nose portion of a 20 pounder shell. It fragmented completely where the body meets the nose leaving the complete nose cone with zinc fuze still attached. In the same area of the battlefield where this fragment was found, a 20 pounder limber chest was destroyed. My question is this - Could this shell have been the result of an external explosion from that limber chest explosion? Is it possible? Has anyone found a fragment like this? Thanks for any info.

Ripcon, when you say "zinc fuze" do you mean to say the fuze adapter and/or the actual time-fuze which was inserted into the hole? I'm not that educated about these matters.

Also, I would like to know what was used to cover the fuze hole (fuze adapter?) to prevent moisture from entering the powder cavity when combat was not imminent.

Ripcon, do you have any other pictures of this item? It would be nice to see a close-up of the base and nose.

Great find!!!

[rommack]

Ripcon; I have found a number of 20  and 30 lb. parrot nose sections over the years at Port Hudson.  With the nose section being so much thicker than the sides of the shell it makes sense that on occasion the explosion of the shell would shear 360 around the nose and also the base leaving just the nose and tail sections intact.  Hope this helps .    Rommack

[John D. Bartleson Jr.]

Ripon,
   At first glance it appears to be a U.S. Dyeror Parrott nose frag.  Pete may be able to comment.
Regards,
John

[Pete George]

Regarding the possibility that the frag is from a limber chest that got struck by a shell, exploding the chest...

  I've been emailed six close-up photos of that frag.  Here's a slightly shorter version of my email reply (rather than the micro-detailed version):
1- Most shells whose internal powder-charge did not explode (but are no longer intact) look "broken" instead of "fragmented."  Meaning, due to external force rather than internal force, the shell's body breaks into fewer pieces.  For an example, see the photo below, which shows a 2.9" Read shell that apparently impacted onto a large boulder on South Mountain, and broke almost in half.
  All of the sidewalls being missing from the Vicksburg nose-frag indicate its internal powder charge exploded.
2- Paper timefuzes were not inserted into shells until moments before firing.  So, the shells in a limber-chest or caisson wouldn't have the paper fuze in them.  If the frag's corroded zinc Parrott fuzeplug has any remnants of a paper timefuze in it, the frag is from a fired shell, not from an exploded limber or caisson.

  That being said, there are three possible explanations when there's no trace of a paperfuze:
1- the paperfuze rotted away entirely.
2- the shell exploded and the blast caused the paperfuze to be "spit out" of the fuzeplug.
3- the shell was in a limber or caisson which got hit, causing the no-paperfuze-in-it shell's bursting charge to explode.

In other words:
  Digging the gunk out of this frag's fuzeplug and finding remnants of a paper timefuze tells you that the frag is not the result of an exploded limber or caisson.  But unfortunately, finding no paperfuze remnants cannot tell us whether the shell was in a limber chest that got hit, or is a fired shell.

  I should mention... the six photos I've seen, each with a ruler alongside the frag, show it is indeed a .3.67" caliber frag, so it is excluded from being a Dyer frag.

Regards,
Pete   

[Ripcon]

Here's the top of the shell nose in question. This corroded zinc fuze is in bad shape, but in order to determine whether the shell had been fuzed and fired I will need to see if there is anything left of the papertime fuze. (Thanks, Pete George for your help on this). I will have to dig into the center of the zinc fuze to find it. Has anybody else been successsful in doing such a procedure?

[Ripcon]

Here's a photo of a Parrott shell with a similar zinc fuze. My question is this - Is the hole in the center of the fuze where the papertime fuze went or is this the result of the shell being disarmed (drilled)?
My shell you can't tell because there is no "hole" present in the center of the fuze. Is this because of trauma to the fuze area?

[emike123]

The second one appears to have a time fuse adapter.  Tough to say from yours whether its the same type filled with corrosion/crud or a percussion fuse adapter with the top smashed off

[Pete George]

  In the photo posted by Ripcon, the shape of whatever is in the fuzehole's top looks a lot more dome-like than in the photos I was sent.  (See below.) 

  The material in the frag's fuzehole top is difficult to distinguish between concreted Vicksburg "loess" soil and rust-stained corroded zinc.  The best way to figure it out is to dig around in it with the point of a knife or a narrow screwdriver.

  I'd also use those tools to dig out whatever is in the bottom of the fuzehole, and see what doing that shows.

  Ripcon, the bottom of a Parrott Type 1 Percussion fuze's zinc "slider" has only a small hole in it, a little less than 1/4-inch in diameter.  The hole in the bottom of a zinc Parrott timefuze plug is much larger, being about 3/8" in diameter.  Please let us know the result after you dig the crud out of the bottom of the fuzehole.  At ths point, all I can see in it looks like rusty dirt-concretion.

  I can only get the 3-meagbyte filesize of the photos I was sent down to 175kb, so due to this forum's 256kb limit, I'll put the photo showing the bottom of the fuzehole in another post.  Note that the fuzehole's bottom is significantly smaller in diameter than its top ...so it  be a Parrott Type 1 Percussion fuzehole (and fuze).

[Pete George]

  Here's the photo showing the bottom of the frag's fuzehole.  Note that it is significantly smaller than the fuzehole's top -- indicating that this Parrott shell was manufactured to use a Parrott Type 1 Percussion fuze.  (Note, the mid-war "smooth-tailed" version of long-range Parrott timefuze plug would also fit it -- but that's obviously not what's in this fuzehole.

Regards,
Pete

[Pete George]

  You asked what remnants of a paper timefuze would look like.  When I'm drilling down through a shell's fuzeplug, I sometimes find recognizable pieces of the spiraling paper wrapping shown in the photo below.

Regards,
Pete

[Ripcon]

Thanks Pete

[Ripcon]

Now that we know the fuze was a percussion type, what are the odds of  the fuze staying imbedded in the shell nose after a "normal" firing and detonation OR could there still be a possibility of a limber chest explosion? Any thoughts?

[Pete George]

  Sorry if my previous post wasn't clear.  Although the small-bottomed fuzehole in a Parrott shell was manufactured for use with a percussion fuze, it could also hold either a long-range timefuze plug OR a "shorter-range" timefuze plug.  (See the photo below... and note the narrow iron "shelf" on the edge of the fuzehole below the zinc fuzeplug -- your shell's fuzehole has that "shelf.")  So, we do not now know whether or not your frag's fuze was a percussion type.  As I indicated in a previous post, you'll have to dig out the bottom of the fuzehole to learn whether it has a timefuze plug or a percussion fuze in it. 

Regards,
Pete