New proof of civil war rifled cannon "Fixed" shells

[John D. Bartleson Jr.]

Joe,
   Maybe I have miss understood your quote as we all know that spherical projectiles can be fixed, cartridges atached or strapped  to their sabots and cartridges loaded separately.
John

[joevann]

Yes, they can and were.  However, they must be wrapped to take rifling.  I'm only repeating what the text says for firing round ball for ricochet effect rifled guns.  As to rifle projectiles (elongated), it states very clearly that the cartridges are loaded seperately from the projectile into the piece.

[John D. Bartleson Jr.]

Joe,  can't the powder bags have paper cylinders and caps imployed in order to fire from rifled guns?
Did it explain how to 'wrap' one?
John

[joevann]

John, download the manual for yourself from the link I posted and make your own determination.  You've been at this many more years than I.

Regards,
Joe

[John D. Bartleson Jr.]

Joe I have downloaded both manuals.  Which one, wha page?
John

[joevann]

Roberts' "Handbook of Artillery" pg 167-168.  It says that in rifled guns, round ball should be wrapped in canvas or other suitable material to bring the center of the projectile as close as possible to the center of the bore.  These are the printed page numbers and not the electronic pages.  I have the full Adobe acrobat program, so when I download one of the texts, I clean them up by removing blank pages, turning illustrations upright, running the entire thing through OCR to make it word searchable, and then install bookmarks to make the research even faster.  Then it goes in my  CD library.  I am in the process putting all my hard-copy on CD, but this will take awhile as I have several thousand in the library. 

[John D. Bartleson Jr.]

Thank you Joe, very thorough.
John

[joevann]

This should be the FINAL word on fixed ammunition for rifled ordnance.  In the Report of the Chief of Ordnance, dated October 23, 1866, there is a 'Statement of ordnance and ordnance stores purchased by the Ordnance Department from January 1, 1861 to June 30, 1866"  Every item is listed by class and the total number purchased and the amount paid.  Projectiles for smooth-bore and rifled guns are Class IV and they are all there broken down by type and caliber.  Fixed ammunition and hand grenades are Class V.  Under the category of "Fixed Ammunition" are listed: 6-pound, shot, shell, case, and cannister; 12-pound shot, shell, case, and cannister;  32-pound shell, and 3-inch canister.  That's it.  That is all the fixed ammunition.

[Pete George]

 With due respect, it is not "the final word" regarding the use (or not) of "fixed" rifled-artillery projectiles in 1861-1865.

  Two days ago, I wrote a lengthy reply in this discussion-thread, then clicked the Post button... and my post failed to appear in the forum. I've not had the time to spare to reconstruct it since then.  However, during the long history of discussion of the subject in this forum, I've posted MULTIPLE scans of surviving original civil war Ordnance Receipts of rifled-cannon ammunition issued in the field, which very specifically list the issuance of "fixed" rifled-cannon ammunition.

 Newer members may not have been told about the past discussions and posts about the subject.  See in particular, past discussion of Tie-ring Base projectiles, and "Those pesky little Xs", and other discussions regarding "fixed" rifled-cannon ammunition.

  Older posts aside, I posted a photo of one of the surviving Fixed rifle-shells Ordnance Receipts in this current discussion.  It lists:
121 Rounds Hotchkiss Case Shot Fixed
11 Percussion Schenkl
11 Cartridges

  As I've said, it is NOT the only such specimen.  But apparently, it (and the several others I've posted) are being ignored/dismissed.  Those original civil war dated in-the-field Ordnance Receipts and rifled-ammo crates marked "Fixed" are the final word on the subject.

  The explanation for lack of space in rifled-cannon ammo crates marked "Fixed" ought to be obvious.  We know that packing iron projectiles with LOADED powder-bags in shipping crates is unsafe during shipment. The simple explanation for the Rifled ammo crates marked "Fixed" is that the powder-bags ("cartridges") are indeed affixed to the projectiles by the issuing Arsenal, but the attached bags are unfilled.

 An 1866 document which does not show Fixed ammo for rifled cannons may reflect the situation in 1866, but the 1861-dated crates and 1863-1864 Ordnance Receipts speak beyond contradiction for the wartime years.

  For the convenience of newer members who have not seen the past posts, here are a couple of the several wartime-dated Ordnance Receipts I've posted showing the issuance of Fixed rifled-cannon projectiles "in the field."

Regards,
Pete 

[John D. Bartleson Jr.]

Dear Pete,
    We are not disregarding your two documents but Joe's document is in definite conflict.
I think when we look at the shape of the rifled Hotchkiss projectile, be it shell,case or solid shot there are no means of fastening a cartridge bag to the projectile body short of pulling the bag up and over the base cup thereby increasing its diameter.
     Even at the West Point Museum there is not one specimen of a fixed rifle projectile.  In your book, Melton, Bell and John Biemick's forth coming publication there is no mention or illustrative image of a fixed rifle projectile. So I for one must yield to the overwhelming evidence that they do not exist.
Respectfully,
John

[joevann]

Issuing ordnance officers in the field during the ACW were, for the most part, inexperienced miltia officers and glorified clerks.  If cartridge bags were to be attached to rifled case or shell, somewhere there would be a written, official document from the Ordnance Department giving exact instructions on how it was to be done.  For goodness sakes!  In relation to round ball and canister, the exact dimensions, type of cloth, size and location of nails was specified!  If it wasn't safe to ship rifled ammunition with the cartridges filled, why was it safe to ship 12 -pound shell with the bag attached and filled?   The wartime manuals giving instruction for servicing rifled guns all specify that the charge and projectile are loaded as separate operations.   With all due respect, Mr. George, I think you're chasing Sasquatch here.  There simply is no physical evidence to support your assertion.  Written receipts on pre-printed forms on Ebay (which may or may not be real) are circumstantial at best.  You're going to have to do better than that to convince an old cannon-cocker like me.  I know of no military establisment anywhere in the world that attached cloth cartridge bags to rifle projectiles either before, during, or after the ACW.  The best argument against this is from an engineering standpoint.  Attaching a cloth bag would require adding the thickness of the cloth to outside of the base of the projectile.  What is going to happen when you try to ram that down the barrel?  It's going to catch, fold, and jam because it is the same diameter as the projectile.  Sabots for round ball were tapered and the cartridge bag is smaller in diameter than the projectile.   Even in post war breech loaders, cartidge bags were not attached to the projectiles.

[joevann]

They are only referring to these rifle shells as "fixed" because they were filled and had the fuze installed at the arsenal or depot.  When they arrived from the manufacturer, they were empty.  If you look at the records of any of the manufacturer's such as Boston Foundry or Cold Springs, they only had provisions for storage of relatively small amounts of powder for proof and testing.  Maybe one small magazine.  Not enough to fill shells.  Guess what?  They still don't.  Private manufacturers make the artillery shells, but they are shipped to an Army Ammunition plant for filling and assembly.

[Robert Gregory]

Regarding the 20 Pounder Rifled Ammunition crate.  30 years ago, I measured and took very detailed notes on a similar crate.  The crate was owned by a gentleman in Lancaster, Pa.  The stenciling on the ends read read "10 ROUNDS / 20 PDR, RIFLE / SHELLS FIXED / 1861 / TIME FUSE."  One side was stenciled "FROM / WATERVLIET / ARSENAL."  The other side was stenciled "U.S. NO. 308 / COL. J. E. LEBLIE / CHIEF OF ARTY. / DEPT. OF NO., CA., / NEWBERN / NO., CA. / FROM N. Y. ARSENAL."  Hinges were added later. Of particular interest to us.  The inside dimensions were 10 1/2"H x 11"W x 21 1/2"L.  The Parrott shell measures approx. 9"L x 3.63"Diam.  A powder bag measured approx. 3.5" in Diam x 4.5"H.  Do the math.  Five shells were set on their sabot on each side wall of the crate. 11" - 7.26" left an empty space in the middle, approx. 3.74".  10 powder bags filled this space.  Five on the bottom row: five on the top row.  The spaces were filled with either tow or saw dust.  Packets of friction primers and/or time fuses were placed on top. Then the box was sealed.  Robert H. Gregory 

[joevann]

If I read your post correctly, Mr. Gregory, you are stating that the cartridge bags are NOT attached to the projectiles, which is my contention all along.

[John D. Bartleson Jr.]

Bob,
   So you are saying the cartridge bags were in a compartment all by themselves? with the projectiles in another.
Regards,
John