New proof of civil war rifled cannon "Fixed" shells

[joevann]

The only way anyone can prove that muzzle-loading rifle ammunition had the powder bags attached, is to find an indisputable physical example or period photograph.  Since none exist in any collections,museums, period illustrations, photographs or any arsenal instructions for the same, I think it is very safe to assume that the term "fixed" when applied to rifled projectiles either means the shell was filled and fuzed  OR it was conventional round case shot to fit the bore of a specific rifled piece.  Yes, you can definately shoot round ball from a rifled artillery piece.

[John D. Bartleson Jr.]

     Welcome aboard Bob.  so in your opinion if the inside height is not tall enough to permit the attachment of powder bags to the rifled shells, what in your opinion does the term 'fixed' mean? it evidently does not mean an all up round ready to ram home.
Regards,
John

[Jine]

Fellows, I thought this a great opportunity to display my ignorance on the subject (I lurk and learn a lot here ). Is Melton of the opinion that fixed means complete, whole? Witness the images and caption at the bottom of this page:

http://www.civilwarartillery.com/projectiles/spherical/IIIA2.htm

If the crates did not have the capacity contain the charge, could the "fixing" be that of the sabot only?

[John D. Bartleson Jr.]

Sir:
    Taken from a quote in Jack's description: "After attachment of the powder charge, the round was referred to as fixed ammunition. "
      Without the powder bag attached iit is merely 'strapped shot or shell'  Below is an example of 'strapped shell' taken from the salvage of the Federal gunboat Cairo.
Regards.
John

[6lbgun]

This from the 1861 Ordnance Manual under the heading "Manner of Packing Ammunition Boxes" page 279.  As you can see, it does not give the dimensions of the box, just how to pack it for shipment.

     For Rifled Guns. - case shot, fixed - Place upright, the balls down, resting on strips of wood as for the howitzers.  The iron part of the balls rests against strips of wood 4 inches wide and .25 inch thick, nailed to the side and ends of the box at the bottom, and similar strips placed between the rows of the balls, to prevent the soft-metal cups from bearing against the box or against each other and being bruised.
..........In all the boxes, the small stores are placed in the vacant spaces on top of the ammunition.  A layer of tow is placed in the bottom of each box, and the whole contents are well packed in tow, filling the box so as to be pressed down by the cover.  About 3lbs of tow are required for a box.
     
     The projectiles are referred to as "balls" , but these projectiles do have sabots referred to "soft metal cups". 
Thanks
Dan
 

[Dave the plumber]

       John, is that you in the old black and white photo ??!!

[John D. Bartleson Jr.]

David, no - read caption upper left.
Dan - Are you shooting spherical case shot in a rifled cannon? Do you have Bob Gregory's book? excellant chapter on artillery ammo boxes.
Regards,
John

[Pete George]

6lbgun wrote:
> The projectiles are referred to as "balls", but these projectiles do have sabots referred to "soft metal cups".

  The "soft metal cups" term in the 1861 Manual must mean the 3" Dyer projectile's lead-&-zinc alloy sabot ...which as you probably already know is the only American-made artillery proectile in US Army service in 1861 which had a "soft metal cup" sabot.  (The Read-Parrott projectile's wrought-iron ring sabot would not be considered a "soft metal.")

Regards,
Pete

[John D. Bartleson Jr.]

Rifled balls, lead cups, damn I am getting confused. 
John 

[6lbgun]

John- Yes I am familure with Bob's book and have a copy. I am not saying that they were using spherical case shot in rifled cannon.  I was just stating what was written in the manual and the terms that were used.
Best
Dan

[John D. Bartleson Jr.]

Dan,
    I am leaning towarrds what Pete said about the lead cup being the Dyer case shot.  It is just the reference to "balls" was a little confusing and I believe that term only applies to spherical projectiles. The application of 'fixed' to spherical field shells, case shot and solid shot is a known fact.
    What has me in a confused state is the use of the word "fixed".  in boxes marked 3 inch rifle, fixed the inside height of the boxes would not have room to have an attached powder bag. None of the rifled projectiles I have seen have a place to tie on a bag.
     I gess I have beat this one to a parade rest.
Regards,
John

[6lbgun]

One of the definitions of Ball is: a spherical or pointed projectile, such as one shot from a cannon.
Best
Dan

[Dave the plumber]

  could 'fixed'  possibly mean with fuze already installed too ??

[joevann]

  could 'fixed'  possibly mean with fuze already installed too ??

That is my contention as regards rifle projectiles.

[joevann]

According to the section on rifled guns in the 1863 (5th) edition of Robert's Handbook of Artillery of the United States, all the cartridges are loaded seperately.  When round ball is used for richochet fire, they must be wrapped to take the rifling, ergo the cartidges are also separate.  Download a free copy here:
http://books.google.com/books?id=s2kBAAAAYAAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=the+handbook+of+artillery&hl=en&sa=X&ei=5OcfUcjEMsnW2gWO3YCoCg&ved=0CEAQ6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=the%20handbook%20of%20artillery&f=false