New proof of civil war rifled cannon "Fixed" shells

[Pete George]

  Some folks here will recall the debate about whether or not civil war RIFLED cannons used "Fixed" ammunition.  I posted several (not just one) original civil war Ordnance Department "receipts" (for ammunition issued in the field to artillery batteries) which plainly listed Hotchkiss and Schenkl Fixed-ammunition shells.

  I've now found additional proof.  It is a non-dug artillery ammocrate, which has Original stenciling saying "20 PDR RIFLE SHELLS FIXED".  The crate is also marked "Watervliet Arsenal Nov. 1861".

  It is currently for sale on Ebay.  As of this moment, that auction ends in 9 hours 17 minutes.  The bidding is currently at $1,090 (with 14 bids).

  Here's a link to the Ebay auction for the marked "20-Pdr Rifle Shells Fixed" artillery ammocrate.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/ORIGINAL-Civil-War-Heavy-Artillery-Box-dated-1861-from-WATERVLIET-ARSENAL-/370704923770?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item564fbc3c7a

  That webpage will be kept "alive" for at least 30 more days from now.  You'll be able to view the enlarged-version photos there even after the auction has ended.  (To do that, put your cursor on the image, and a ghosted white box will appear that says "Mouse here to zoom in.")

  Here's a photo showing the marking saying "20 PDR RIFLE SHELLS FIXED."  (The marking is written in all-caps, so that is who I've typed it here.) If you can't see it clearly enough in this photo, go to the Ebay auction page and use the zoom-in option.

Regards,
Pete

[John D. Bartleson Jr.]

Yes, and I am one of those folks.  Pete you have better eyes than mine as all I can read is the arsenal marking.
I have enlarged the sides with markings, enhanced them in photoshop to try and read what you say the box reads.  No luck.
I wonder why the seller does not mention what ammo was in the box.
I would certainly like to see just how a powder bag is fastened to the Hotchkiss or the Schenkl.
Can anyone see any reference to 20 pdr Schenkl fixed ammunition?
Regards,
John

[Jine]

Yes, and I am one of those folks.  Pete you have better eyes than mine as all I can read is the arsenal marking.
I have enlarged the sides with markings, enhanced them in photoshop to try and read what you say the box reads.  No luck.
I wonder why the seller does not mention what ammo was in the box.
I would certainly like to see just how a powder bag is fastened to the Hotchkiss or the Schenkl.
Can anyone see any reference to 20 pdr Schenkl fixed ammunition?
Regards,
John

I see everything but the "Schenkl".

[Pete George]

  NOWHERE in my post did I say the ammocrate's stenciling says "Schenkl."

  Artillery ammocrate stenciled labeling typically tells only the caliber/cannon-type, and whether the projectiles are shell, case-shot, or solid-shot.  Such as "3 In. Rifle Case Shot".

Regards,
Pete

[Jine]

  NOWHERE in my post did I say the ammocrate's stenciling says "Schenkl."

  Artillery ammocrate stenciled labeling typically tells only the caliber/cannon-type, and whether the projectiles are shell, case-shot, or solid-shot.  Such as "3 In. Rifle Case Shot".

Regards,
Pete

  I noted that Pete, thus the quotation marks.

[6lbgun]

Some fixed thoughts:
     Has anyone come across an Ordnance Department receipt for rifled ammunition without the designation "Fixed"?
     Fixed spherical ammunition was shipped from the arsenals packed in paper cylinders with paper caps.  Whether these were removed when uncrated to be placed in the limbers and caissons, or removed at the time of loading the piece is not clear.  Large field caliber and siege gun ammunition was not fixed so the paper cylinders and caps were omitted.
    I have not been able to definitely find out how rifled ammunition was packed for shipment at the arsenals.  I would assume that the projectile and cartridge would be shipped together.  I'm thinking that if the projectile and cartridge were shipped together in a paper cylinder and cap, (not necessarily tied together) they would be considered one complete round. (Fixed).  If ordering complete rounds the terminology fixed would be used.  When ordering just the projectile, the word fixed  would be omitted.        Dan   

[Pete George]

6lbgun wrote:
> Has anyone come across an Ordnance Department receipt for rifled ammunition without the designation "Fixed"?

  Yes... here's one of several, which I've posted in past discussion of the subject. It shows the issuance of "Hotckiss Case Shot Fixed" and "Percussion Schenkl" [non-fixed], along with an equal number of Cartridges for the Schenkl shells.

Regards,
Pete

[John D. Bartleson Jr.]

Pete I wonder if the term case shot was in reality cannister which were fixed or could be.
Regards,
John
P.S. Shouldn't your statement "Such as "3 In. Rifle Case Shot"." have the word "fixed" at the end?

[John D. Bartleson Jr.]

Would someone list the members of a ACW rifled gun crew and their duties at the gun?
John

[Selma Brooke Gunner]

John,
    Are you looking for Army field artilley or Navy gun crew?

[mccaul]

John, I am at work and do not have access to my book, but in my book I have a schematic showing the positions of all crew members for a battery.  I do not remember the source, but it is footnoted in the book.
Ed

[scottfromgeorgia]

John, why did you change the subject of this thread with the question, "Would someone list the members of a ACW rifled gun crew and their duties at the gun?
John" Probably better as a new thread for us readers. Thanks, Scott

[John D. Bartleson Jr.]

On the contrary sir, it will show that either gun crew member 1 or 2 will load and ram a powder cartridge, followed by the projectile in loading a rifled cannon and that rifled artillery projectiles have separate projectile and cartridge bags and are not 'fixed' ammunition.
Regards,
John

[Robert Gregory]

John Bartleson has urged me to join your chat group.
I have examined about 100 ammunition crates for small arms, small arms and artillery ammunition, and Naval crates.  Three crates containing 3" Schenkl ammo for shell and case had no room for powder bags.  I have examined two rifled ammo crates fabricated at the Watervliet Arsenal.  The stenciling was very light.  My photos were taken with an Instamatic or Brownie camera and have darkened over the years.  But I have taken very detailed measurements on my forms.  What you need to know is the interior dimensions of the crates and the lettering:

10 Pdr. Rifle (painted red w/white lettering) - Interior: 11 3/4"H x 11 3/4"W x 19"L.  Each line of information is separated by a forward slash: 20 ROUNDS / 10 PDR, RIFLE / CASE SHOT FIXED / 1861 / BORMAN FUZE

20 Pdr. Rifle (painted black w/white lettering) - Interior: 10 1/2"H x 11"W x 21 1/2"L.  10 ROUNDS / 20 PDR, RIFLE / SHELLS FIXED / 1861 / TIME FUZE
One side was stenciled: U.S.  NO. 308 / COL. J. E. LEBLIE / CHIEF OF ARTY. / DEPT. OF NO. CA., / NEWBERN / NO., CA. / FROM N. Y. ARSENAL

I am Robert Gregory at: walkdontrun@tds.net
I published a book in 2011 that covers Ordnance Forms, Small Arms and Ammunition, Artillery Ammunition and Packing Crates.  It covers A-Z in Ordnance.  It has been reviewed by The Artilleryman, The Camp Chase Gazette, The American Digger and North-South Trader's Civil War.  It is a "must have."  It has been endorsed by James T. Cook, authority on small arms ammunition and Jack W. Melton Jr., authority on artillery.  Visit my website at: http://potomacpublishingco.com

[Dave the plumber]

 welcome aboard Bob !!            It's about time you showed up here.........    all artillery enthuasists eventually do............
          How long would a powder bag be for a 3 inch Parrott shell, as your first crate had ??   Notice also they were 10 lb Parrott with the Bormann fuze