Bullet and Shell Civil War Projectiles Forum

Author Topic: U.S. Whitworth's  (Read 10293 times)

Jack Wells

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U.S. Whitworth's
« on: March 18, 2011, 02:27:13 PM »
If any of you have the book "The Civil War Catalog",Edited by Anthony Shaw.by "Running Press" Phil. & London 2003 ISBN: 13 : 978-0-7624-1625-7, & ISBN  10: 0-7624 1625-7.If you don't have the listed Ref.,and your local library doesn't have it, try for an ILL.
Check Photo on Pg. 214 Note the person in photo and look at the stack of projectiles he is pointing at with his right index finger.Photo was taken at the "Washington Arsenal 1864". I think these are 80 Pdrs.?
This is one of two photos that I now find I missed when searching the Archives in the early 70's & 1981.The other is of 12Pdr. Tube that I didn't have a photo of.
Jack
Charles.J.Wells (Jack)
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John D. Bartleson Jr.

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Re: U.S. Whitworth's
« Reply #1 on: March 18, 2011, 06:20:17 PM »
Jack,
I know that I don't have this reference.  Can you post the photo for members to see?
Regards,
John

Jack Wells

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Re: U.S. Whitworth's
« Reply #2 on: March 18, 2011, 07:06:23 PM »
Am unable to get the book on the screen,thats the reason I gave the ISBN # and other data
Jack
Charles.J.Wells (Jack)
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Jack Wells

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Re: U.S. Whitworths
« Reply #3 on: March 18, 2011, 09:16:12 PM »
In the event a member of the Forum has the listed reference and can, please post the photo for those that do not have or can not find the reference.Should have thought of this on my first posting. Ancient Brain ? not working as it should.
Jack
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Pete George

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Re: U.S. Whitworth's
« Reply #4 on: March 18, 2011, 11:55:35 PM »
  I found the following info during my continuing research for my upcoming reply to ColJFB's post.  The info applies to the proectiles in (and location of) the photo mentioned by Jack Wells.

Yankee usage of 70-pounder Whitworth Rifles, and ammunition for them:
http://markerhunter.wordpress.com/2010/03/28/70-pdr-whitworth-rifles/

  The yankees captured four 70-pounder (5-inch) Whitworth Rifles, plus ammunition, aboard the CS blockade-runner Princess Royal.  Also, apparently included in the capture were machinery for manufacturing Whitworth projectiles, and a crew of skilled Machinists to assist in the production.  "A partly of English workmen, skilled in the manufacture of projectiles, were captured with the vessel. "  http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=FA0E15FC3A5F137B93C1A91789D85F478684F9

  Also see the yankee Navy Official Records report which mentions the name of one of the skilled English machinists, whom the yankees "sent north" even though he was not to be considered a prisoner.  Perhaps he wound up assisting the yankees' production of Whitworth projectiles at the Washington Navy Yard.
http://dlxs2.library.cornell.edu/cgi/t/text/pageviewer-idx?c=moawar;cc=moawar;idno=ofre0013;q1=Princess%20Royal;frm=frameset;view=image;seq=582;page=root;size=s

  The yankees wound up using two of those captured 70-pounder Whitworth Rifles to bombard the Confederate defenses at Charleston SC.  While firing 5"-caliber Whitworth Bolts made at the Washington Navy Yard, which were not correctly sized, one of the 70-pdr. Whitworth Rifles blew up, killing four yankee cannoneers.  Several 70-pdr. Whitworth projectiles are pictured in Jack Bell's book on Heavy Artillery projectiles.  See especially page 447.

Regards,
Pete
« Last Edit: March 19, 2011, 12:23:19 AM by Pete George »

scottfromgeorgia

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Re: U.S. Whitworth's
« Reply #5 on: March 19, 2011, 12:45:23 PM »
Sounds like the Confederates were better off with the Whitworths in Yankee hands.

For you diggers, "From the Whitworth guns 222 solid projectiles were fired, of which 98 hit and 124 missed the fort." There are 124 70 pound bolts out there somewhere around Fort Sumter.

John D. Bartleson Jr.

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Re: U.S. Whitworth's
« Reply #6 on: March 19, 2011, 04:06:32 PM »
Forget it, about 8 knots of current run by the Fort; zero visibility, lots of mud and it is illegal to dive around the Fort.
Regards,
John

CarlS

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Re: U.S. Whitworth's
« Reply #7 on: March 20, 2011, 12:44:04 AM »
John,

You forgot to mention the sharks (My son caught a shark not a few hundred yards from the fort.) and flotillas of speed boats in the harbour.  But other than all that, shells should be all around that fort!
Best,
Carl

John D. Bartleson Jr.

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Re: U.S. Whitworth's
« Reply #8 on: March 20, 2011, 07:51:43 AM »
They never bothered to bite our nasty butts :).   I was there the year they discovered the huge cache of projectiles in the cistern that had been filled in.  That recovery prompted my unit's work in deactivating over 100 parrotts and schenkls for the National Park service.
Regards,
John

ColJFB

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Re: U.S. Whitworth's
« Reply #9 on: March 20, 2011, 01:07:25 PM »

Various patterns of the 5-inch Whitworth shell, case shot and bolt are interesting projectiles.

Four Whitworth 5-inch muzzle loading rifles were indeed captured in the blockade runner Princess Royal on 29 January 1863.  One is currently at the Washington Naval Yard and the Navy Historical Center states “… two similar Whitworths captured in the blockage runner were used by the Federals against Charleston, but were deemed highly unsatisfactory.  Shells exploded prematurely and tended to jam in the bore during loading and accuracy was poor.  When the inner tube of one gun slipped, both pieces were taken out of service; the disabled gun is now at West Point.”  Reference: John C. Reilly, Jr., The Iron Guns of Willard Park, Naval Historical Center, 1991, page 84.

Olmstead, Stark and Tucker, The Big Guns, state “After 111 rounds, one 5-inch Whitworth was disabled by the breech starting back inside the reinforcing sleeve far enough to close its vent.”  “While striving to ram one of them [a round] home, four men were killed by a premature explosion of its charge.” (Page 141)
 
Jack Bell also notes “…that four men on the crew were killed trying to ram one home” and that documents in the Washington Navy Yard acknowledge it was the ammunition (Bell-445). 

The gun did not blow-up and was on display at West Point’s Trophy Point when I last visited the West Point Museum to measure their collection.

Mr. Whitworth designed some 5-inch Whitworth rifle projectiles specifically to penetrate armor plate.  To accomplish this, his armor penetrating shells and shot were made of steel.  Holly states Mr. Whitworth used Bessemer steel (page 199) which was some of the finest of its day.  Armor penetrating shells had a flat nose and the impact of the shell with the plate caused immense heat that detonated the bursting charge.  To “…regulate the time of ignition, the bursting charge was surrounded with a proper thickness of flannel, or other material which is a non-conductor of heat.”  Holly, pages 493 and 494.  I have not been able to document whether this shell was fired at Charleston, but a specimen is on hand at the West Point Museum.

The British specification for the 5-inch Whitworth projectile was 4.965-inches across the flats and 5.465-inches across the angles.

I inspected the 5-inch shell (old inventory #3226), 5-inch case shot (old inventory #3225) and bolt (old inventory #9512) that are on hand at the museum.  I don't recall if the inventory cards revealed if the shell or bolt had been produced at the Washington Naval Yard or whether they came off the blockade runner, but I will check my notes.

The shell casing weighed 65.0 pounds without its fuse and bursting charge.  Computer modeling the shell revealed a complete specimen would weigh at least 70.0 lbs, depending upon the size of the bursting charge that was used.  This is a very long shell (21.5-inches) and has a large bursting charge chamber.  The case shot casing weighed about 50.0 pounds (the casing was missing its payload, bursting charge and fuse).  A complete round would also likely weigh at least 70.0 pounds.  The case shot and bolt were the same specimens listed by Jack Bell on pages 450 and 447.

There were several lengths and weights of shells and bolts made for 5-inch Whitworth rifles.  Some weigh 81 pounds; hence this rifle at times is referred to as the 80-pounder, but Whitworth designated it the 70-pounder.  The ammunition used at Charleston was of the 70-pound classification.

The heaver ammunition may have been limited to tests conducted in England or on export rifles.  As a matter of interest, Holly lists his 5-inch-inch blind shell as 19-inches in length, 81 pounds including a bursting charge of 3.75 pounds.  As a point of reference, that is approximately the same size bursting charge that was used in the 80-pounder Parrott.

Respectfully, John B

John D. Bartleson Jr.

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Re: U.S. Whitworth's
« Reply #10 on: March 20, 2011, 01:28:29 PM »
     In 1975 I brought back into the states two  5 inch Whitworth bolts painted olive drab.  They came from Shoeburyness.  I wonder where they are located now?
Regards,
John

Relic Doc

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Re: U.S. Whitworth's
« Reply #11 on: March 20, 2011, 06:05:53 PM »
(ONR, Series I, Volume 14, p. 472)  States that " . . .  four men were killed by a premature explosion of the charge."

Jack Wells

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Re: U.S. Whitworth's
« Reply #12 on: March 21, 2011, 08:22:22 AM »
The following are some notes I have on the 70/80 Pdr. Projectiles in condensed form.
1.Whitworth refers to the 70 Pdr. early on as 80 Pdr. later 70 Pdr.
2. The Early Bolts weighed 90 Lbs.later 80 Lbs.
3.The first test results I found records of, were at Southport (UK) on 15-17 Feb. 1860
4. Dimension's from several sources,were: Min.: 4.98/5.01", Maj. 5.46 / 5.5"
5. 70 Prd. Shrapnel: Wt.: 67.7 Lbs.,Length: 15.58",Contained 199 Balls,Expelling Charge: 3oz. , 
     Bursting Charge 6 oz.When Shell "Functioned" ,it produced a Cone 123.3 yds. deep,and 9.4 Yds. 
     wide.
6.Two types of Armor Piercing Bolts were Patented: # 1623,2 June 1863,and # 261,30Jan.1864
    A. Pat.#1623 shows two(2) patterns of projectile 1. Small screw in bolt in nose,2. Solid 
        nose,Whitworth calls the material used in the construction as "Homegenious Metal" which was 
        heated,cooled,reheated and tempered for max. strength.Explosive charge contained in Flannel   
        Bag
        Base closed by a Plug fitted with Whitworth Acme threads
    B. Pat. # 261. Shows a flat nose with a Steel plug heated and pressed into the nose,Base closing
        plug ,has  tube mounted on top(Inside of shell body) with Percussion cap Charge was             
        contained  in bag.Upon penetration fuze would function and blow  Steel Plug" ,completing   
       Armor  plate  penetraion.
Trust this will be of use to the Forum
Jack
 
 
Charles.J.Wells (Jack)
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John D. Bartleson Jr.

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Re: U.S. Whitworth's
« Reply #13 on: March 21, 2011, 04:34:36 PM »
To All Interested;
      Since Jack loaned me the patents to make my drawings from I have asked him if I may post as an addition to his post on the Whitworth projectile.   The rifled sphere did not make it to service issue.
      It has been my findings, as mentioned by other members, that after the Ordncnce Seledt Committee selected The projectiles of Sir William Armstrong for service use Sir Joseph Whitworth marketed his ordnance to other countries.
      Whitworth reports that the addition of the cloth bag allowed full penetration delay to achieve detonation inside the armor plating.  Without the bag the projectiles detonated from the generated heat at impact.
Regards,
John aka Bart
 
« Last Edit: March 21, 2011, 04:39:42 PM by John D. Bartleson Jr. »

John D. Bartleson Jr.

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Re: U.S. Whitworth's
« Reply #14 on: March 21, 2011, 04:41:36 PM »
I had to add this one.
John