Bullet and Shell Civil War Projectiles Forum

Author Topic: CS Naval Carriage  (Read 19325 times)

Selma Hunter

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Re: CS Naval Carriage
« Reply #15 on: October 25, 2012, 08:34:28 AM »
Dave -

The rope/lanyard coiled at the breech is very definitely a lanyard, IMHO.  Numerous other photos exist of similar arrangements on CS tubes.  The lack of a "T" handle doesn't change that at all.  The gun lock cover in this case seems to be a modified bowl or basin hammered out to serve a purpose otherwise unfulfilled.

Your question as to where they were mounted on the gun is best answered by a look at the several "extra vent holes" so often seen near the actual lined vent hole - these were for the mounting screws for the gun lock.

The breech sight is a simple set screw arrangement used as the rear sight in conjunction with the "reinforce" sight as the front sight.  On the large guns the frequently see muzzle sight was somewhat redundant and used only in setting the gun up as I understand it.  These big guns, when set in a fixed position (i.e. on land) had to be "trued" [my term] like a surveyors transit.  There were several accoutrements used in that process including something called a "sight bar".  Sight bars and reenforce sights were typically "numbered to the gun".

Andy, your thoughts?


CarlS

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Re: CS Naval Carriage
« Reply #16 on: October 25, 2012, 11:17:43 AM »
Gordon:  Thanks for the info.  It's pretty amazing what they could make with largely steam power back then.

Dave: Here is a close-up of the lanyard:

Best,
Carl

Selma Brooke Gunner

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Re: CS Naval Carriage
« Reply #17 on: October 25, 2012, 01:25:27 PM »
Bill, I dont think I could have said it better myself.
Gordon Thrasher
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selmabrookestudy@yahoo.com

Dave the plumber

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Re: CS Naval Carriage
« Reply #18 on: October 25, 2012, 09:01:37 PM »
   thanks Bill !!        I guess the lanyard for the lock didn't need a T handle. My cannon locks all are spring latched like on a musket. So not alot of pull like a friction primer requires is needed to use a cannon lock.           As for the sight on the breech, I wonder where the recess or step or whatever would be for it to set on for consistemncy and accuracy.     It looks like some framing square type tool - I'm gonna keep my eye out for one of those at the flea market !!

Selma Brooke Gunner

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Re: CS Naval Carriage
« Reply #19 on: October 26, 2012, 04:05:45 AM »
    Concerning the breeching block I did some research tonight and have some info for you on that. The breeching block matches one that I was able to find in Artillery and Ammunition of the Civil War by Warren Ripley, it is a 32pdr of 57cwt with a 6.4in bore. With this example being banded it to would also be rifled so this would explain the round that is sitting near the cannon in the photo. If your interested and have Ripley's book check pg 39 fig I-48 this is a good photo of the unbanded tube. On pg 31 fig I-28 is a photo of a simular gun banded and rifled except the muzzle has been cut back and the muzzle flare is gone.
    As for the lanyard in all propability it is attached to a lock and the handle could just be under the lock cover.
Gordon Thrasher
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Kinston, Al
selmabrookestudy@yahoo.com

Selma Hunter

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Re: CS Naval Carriage
« Reply #20 on: October 26, 2012, 11:01:17 AM »
All -

Note in the close up that the raw end of the lanyard is visible to the right of and about midway down the breech sight "shaft".  No handle doesn't mean they didn't use a peg or stick and simply wrap the lanyard around it for use.  Do recall that the first and preferred method of ignition for naval guns aboard ship was the quill primer, which was fired by the fall of a cam driven hammer on the lock.  Spring operated locks had been largely abandoned during the period of this war due to a number of issues.  Quill primers looked roughly like a golf tee and were percussion/concussion fired versus the metallic friction primers normally used on field guns.  Some metallic "quill-type" primers were used but only in situations where the overhead was open vs. between ships decks or in the confines of flank defense batteries of a fortress.

As far as any recess or step for the breech sight is concerned it is my observation that on the big guns like the Brooke there is a "left-right" hole through a block or protrusion that secured the sight to the tube on the ogive of the cascabel.  Other examples such as the gun tubes off of the CSS Alabama at the Museum of Mobile and in the CSS Hunley/Lasch Center have "trunnion" sights.  These sights are offset and the "front" sight is usually set/screwed into a hole near the base of a trunnion.

The sight bars are as rare as hens teeth.  I called every US navy museum/Archive I could identify when I first learned that there was such a thing and finally Carl recalled seeing one (or more) at the Cairo Museum in Vicksburg.  The Vicksburg bars are apparently the only remaining examples that are on display anywhere in the US for ACW period naval guns.  FWIW, I have a true copy of a three page explanation that was written before the war (J. A. Dahlgren was the author as I recall) explaining how they worked - likely from some of his notes prior to an official printing of some sort. The sketches help a lot.  From what I can tell they (at least some) were made as a brass bar on a wooden base.

As for steam, the other great power supply was water driven.  An amazing amount of work was done in factories using overhead shaft systems that spanned not only entire floors of those buildings but multiple levels of floors. The torque generated must have been enormous.

FWIW, on a thread that goes back to the initial forum that brought many of us together 5-7 years ago I will attempt to re-state my opinion regarding the spelling of "Fuze" vs. "Fuse".  At the time I referred to multiple period-original sources (encyclopedias, military dictionaries, gazettes, ordnance manuals, etc.) in my conclusion that the proper period spelling was/is "FuZe" versus the commonly encountered "Fuse".  I don't care what Microsoft, AOL, etc. spell checking thinks, in fact the proper spelling is with a "Z".  After all of the fuss and flying feathers, expressions of opinion and any modern sources have been examined I would invite the attention of anyone who actually gives a hoot to simply look that the side of a time fuZe for a spelling lesson.  The cover of a fuZe package also provides some enlightenment to us too slow to pick up on the obvious hints.

'Nuff 'bout that!
« Last Edit: October 27, 2012, 07:21:43 AM by Selma Hunter »

Jim J.

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Re: CS Naval Carriage
« Reply #21 on: October 26, 2012, 02:44:10 PM »
Gordon (?),
Sorry, but I cannot resist a bit of tongue in cheek humour here, after reading your well written post - see above!  We conserved a 6" smooth bore Fawcett & Preston cannon from the CSS Alabama a few years ago, that was an interesting project to say the least.  She had been underwater for some 150 years, and there was lots of concretion, so we had to drill the bore .  .  .   yeah, she was loaded.  Anyway, reading your description of the British offset trunnion sights, made me think of our cannon (now on display somewhere up in Washington, DC), and of one of our saved digital images.  Here is the last color photograph taken from the CSS Alabama, looking down the barrel of the F&P smooth bore cannon.


The image really is of the actual cannon, with a color painting of the USS Kearsage photoshopped into the background. 

Is there any chance that I could get a copy of Dahlgren's explanation for the sight bar - Please!

I understand your feelings on the issue of spelling, but it has unfortunately come into "common usage".  I checked my Oxford English dictionary, which is my reference when in doubt, and the word "fuse" reads . . . designed to detonate explosive charge, and the word "fuse" reads . . . see fuse !!!

Jim J.

Selma Brooke Gunner

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Re: CS Naval Carriage
« Reply #22 on: October 26, 2012, 03:21:12 PM »
Jim,
   That is an awesome photo. I am Gordon, the one who posted about the sights "Selma Hunter" is Bill. If there is anyway to get a better photo of the actual sights themselves trust me I would love to see it.
   To actually work with on of the Alabama guns is an honor IMHO. If you could share with us what kind of round was loaded in the 6in (was it shot or shell) that would be awesome.
   I get to work with a surviving Brooke 7in rifle from time to time and also have access to 4 other Brooke survivers. The museum that i do volunteer work with from time to time has a lifesize fiberglass repro of the Blakely that was recovered from the Alabama, that was cast off of the original.
   Thanks for sharing the info and the photo.
Gordon Thrasher
Selma Brooke Study
Kinston, Al
selmabrookestudy@yahoo.com

CarlS

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Re: CS Naval Carriage
« Reply #23 on: October 26, 2012, 06:31:27 PM »
Hello,

In case no one has noticed, I've really gotten into looking closely at these old photographs.  And as much as it pains me to say something good about government, they have lots of them scanned in high resolution that they have made easily accessable that I can explore.  I was able to find a couple big versions of the CSS Teaser so I'll be adding a few images from it here.

My first one is a better view of the breach of the tube. You can see the rope end clearly and the vent cap.

Best,
Carl

CarlS

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Re: CS Naval Carriage
« Reply #24 on: October 26, 2012, 06:35:10 PM »
Amazingly, we can see most of the year date on the trunnion.  It seems to say 185x.  I can't see the last digit.

Best,
Carl

CarlS

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Re: CS Naval Carriage
« Reply #25 on: October 26, 2012, 06:48:05 PM »
Gordon,

Thanks.  You are absolutely correct that the guns on page 39 of Ripley are this type of gun.  Markings match and everything.  One thing I see that's different is the breaching block on the Teaser gun has a removable section on the back held in place with a pin.  The one Ripley shows has a solid ring with no removable parts.  But the drawing at the top of the page showing the parts and markings of a gun from Fort Fisher do show the breaching block with a removable piece.  Thanks. Great info.

Another thing that the better image did was clearly show how the compressor clamp worked.  Just as you described.  Thanks.
« Last Edit: October 26, 2012, 06:55:00 PM by CWArtillery »
Best,
Carl

CarlS

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Re: CS Naval Carriage
« Reply #26 on: October 26, 2012, 07:13:44 PM »
Ok; last one for today.  Below is the bow gun for the CSS Teazer.  It is a 2.9-inch Navy Parrott with Brooke hook/slant rifling.  This actual gun is currently located in the Washington Navy Yard, DC.  Note the lack of trunnions and the belly mounted pivot device.  Also note the rear site is similar to that on the rifled and banded 32-lber.  This one appears to be missing it's thumb screw.

Best,
Carl

Dave the plumber

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Re: CS Naval Carriage
« Reply #27 on: October 26, 2012, 08:36:59 PM »
    ok, how does the elevating screw work on the new photo ??  It looks like the handle part is seperate and sitting forward of the screw itself. Shouldn't it be under the area where the screw passess through the cascabel and against the wood to actually make it turn ??
            Carl, maybe you want to start a new post with this and each new photo as we tear into them, analize them and blow them up to mega pizels !!
« Last Edit: October 26, 2012, 08:44:33 PM by Dave the plumber »

Selma Brooke Gunner

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Re: CS Naval Carriage
« Reply #28 on: October 27, 2012, 03:47:21 AM »
Dave,
     what you see the 2.9 CS Parrott mounted on is a boat carriage. It is very simular to a boat carriage for a boat howitzer (the CS Parrott is made like a boat howitzer by the way) except larger. The elevation screw is worked by the wheel on the screw next to the carriage (bottom of the elevation screw). The handle that you see under the tube is the compressor handle, this one works different than the other compressor as it places the tension on the bottom of the carriage instead of the sides but it serves the same purpose.
Gordon Thrasher
Selma Brooke Study
Kinston, Al
selmabrookestudy@yahoo.com

Dave the plumber

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Re: CS Naval Carriage
« Reply #29 on: October 27, 2012, 07:26:36 AM »
   okay, I can see that now            . But what tool is used to turn that small wheel ??  That is alot of weight \ tension on the screw to make it turn, especially with such a course thread on the screw. I don't picture it being turned by hand, as I would figure the wheel would have a bigger diameter firstall, and flats or some type of gripping surface - not a smooth small wheel