12 pd Case Shot Cut in Half

[Jine]

Congratulations, callicles! That's got to be a thunderbolt of a pleasant surprise. In the past week, between your query and mine, my understanding of the Bormann fuse has increased a hundredfold, thanks to those here who freely share their hard(er)-earned wisdom and knowledge on this board.

We've both learned about rebates now, the best rebate I've ever heard of. It's interesting to me how inanimate, obsolete objects can "fire" so much passion, and also how much there is to know, and that I need to learn.

[Dave the plumber]

     sure beats the '" beanie babies collectors " forums !!

[callicles]

Thanks for the kind words Jine.  Yes, it's amazing how much there is to learn.  What I do is print out all the incredible posts.  I think I'm up to 45 print outs of Pete George's posts alone.  emike and CW and others have made the file, as have others.

Dave the Plumber, I had just taken a sip of Coke when I read your post.  A let out an uncontrollable laugh and sprayed my computer screen -- thanks

[Jine]

Dave the Plumber, I had just taken a sip of Coke when I read your post.  A let out an uncontrollable laugh and sprayed my computer screen -- thanks

+1, in my case- sweet tea!

Beanie Babies are obsolete now, aren't they? I know for most sane people they are also inanimate.

[6lbgun]

On July 28th Pete wrote:

"Bormann fuse were definitely Not installed in the shell at the arsenal"
I would respectfully disagree with that.

   On page 275 of the 1863 Ordnance Manual it reads:
To charge the shot: Fill the chamber with musket -powder, ramming it softly with a wooden drift and light mallet; screw in the iron plug, leaving it's top flush with the bottom of the large portion of the fuse-hole, and lay over it a thin leather washer with hole in the center; fill the hole in the plug and the washer with rifle-powder; punch 4 or 5 small holes in the tin disk in the bottom of the fuse; put a little white lead on the threads of the fuse, and screw the fuse firmly into the shell."
   The white lead, washer, and firm tightening was considered sufficient to seal the shell.
   This quote is found in the section of the manual concerning filling and fixing ammunition.  These would be Arsenal instructions not field instructions.  I think the pictures of the Cairo salvage in John's post showing fixed ammunition in their shipping crates, fused, would support this.
    Concerning the caches of shells found with the Bormanns missing.  If these caches were made to abandon the projectiles, what better to disarm them than by pulling the fuse and opening the interior of the shell to the elements.  The fact that some fuses were intact may be due to the fact that they couldn't get them out.

    This may be premature, but I have a line on 12lb shell or case shot from an Arsenal's abandoned stores.  There is absolutely no doubt about where it came from.  It is reportedly Bormann fused, with the fuse being arsenal marked.  Been chasing it quite a while, haven't caught it yet.
Best regards to all,
Dan

[callicles]

6lbgun,

Great observations reasoned on solid historical evidence.  I hope Pete posts a response.  I see your point, this manual seems to indicate a process to be followed.  However, what should you and I conclude about our case shots (yours a 6-pounder, mine a 12-pounder) that evidently are CS manufactured iron with Yankee-made/manufactured fuses? I know this does not reflect specifically to procedures prescribed by the manual you cited, but would seem to indicate (if the rebate theory and the 90 degree wedge theory are correct) that fuses were either removed or absent.  Also, I'd like to know whether the arsenals were operated by private corporations who simply contracted with the government, or were they government owned?  I would suspect they were private firms.  I doubt Halliburtan (sp?) follows military manual regulations to a "T."

Just meager thoughts to a well posted factual observation by you.

[6lbgun]

callicles,
    Arsenals were government owned and operated.  In the case of the Allegheny Arsenal it was staffed by a commandant and a small staff of Ordnance officers and inspectors.  At the time of the explosion in 1862, it had 950 civilian employees, mostly women and children.  Superintendents of the various departments were also civilians some having seen prior service with the Ordnance department.  Woman and children were used because they could be paid less wages and the male employees were subject to the draft.
Hope this helps.
Dan

Sorry, you got me talking about Arsenals, Allegheny in particular, I forgot about the fuse question.
   I feel that there were spare fuses issued as a matter of course.  In the case of CS case shot with US fuses I can  think of two sinerios.  Either a CS gunner removed his crappy fuse and replaced it with a captured fuse, or it was fired at  US troops, didn't explode, re-fused and sent back to the Rebs via air mail.
Regards
Dan

[John D. Bartleson Jr.]

Nice comment Dan.
Somewhere I have read that it was a standing order NOT to remove Bormann Fuses as a detonation had occurred at an arsenal killing the person attempting to remove one.
One of my question has yet to be addressed. 
     Where and how did the C.S. obtain the intricate casting machine for the Borman?
      With regard to "tick marks" before the 1 and after the 5?  Could U.s. arsenals received requests from the field to add shorter and longer burn times for their Bormanns? Are we just seeing a wider variety of U.S. Bormann fuses  Would not the 45 degree fuse face have been changed from 90 degrees in order to add shorter buring times?
My mind is racing with unanswered, documented replies.
All the Best,
John

[John D. Bartleson Jr.]

To All Interested;
     The Bormann was invented by a Belgium Army officer and gave it his name.
I don't know how the U.S. obtained it but it was sold all over Europe..
In 1863 George Wright received his patent No. 38352 on the apparattus to cast the Borman fuse for the U.s. Wright is the same person who designed the combo time and percussion fuse for the flat nose Hotchkiss projectile. This was long after the fuse had been in use.
You can look up his patent on Google Patent search by typing in the patent number and you can also download it in PDF.
Regards,
John

[6lbgun]

John,

How the CS got the Bormann machine?  They bought it off of the Federal government.

This is from  a letter to Secretary of War Floyd from Virginia's Adjutant General Wm. H. Richardson from Richmond on December 6, 1860.
"Sir: I am instructed by the Governor to request that the impliments and machinery for manufacturing the Bormann fuse may be made for the State at one of the Government arsenals, say Washington, to be paid for by the state commissioners having charge of this subject....."
     This letter was then sent to the Ordnance Dept where it was indorsed by Capt. W.M. Maynadier, Ordnance Dept.
Finaly it was indorsed by Floyd on December 10th.
"The impliments, &c, for making the fuse may be made on the terms within stated, at the Washington arsenal.
                                                                                                                                               J. B. Floyd
                                                                                                                                               Secretary of War
Hope this helps
Dan

[John D. Bartleson Jr.]

Dan,
  Hosw do you find these references so fast or did you already have it? Thank you.
I sent you an email when you get home.
Regards
John

[Pete George]

Callicles wrote:
> Great observations reasoned on solid historical evidence.  I hope Pete posts a response.

  I do have more info and more field-recovered historical evidence to contribute to the discussion.  But yesterday I had a kidney stone.  Went to the Urology hospital today for X-ray, which was inconclusive, and thus was followed by a CAT-scan.  Two more stones (blessedly small) are lurking in there.  I'll post again when I am on less potent medication.  ;-) 

[Daveslem]

Excellent post, guys! Thanks to all that contributed to this thread. I definitely learned something today.

[6lbgun]

Pete,
   Hope you're feeling better soon.
God bless,
Dan

[Daveslem]

Keep you in my prayers, Pete.