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Author Topic: Blakely??  (Read 21925 times)

John D. Bartleson Jr.

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Blakely??
« on: February 13, 2012, 08:11:15 PM »
To All Interested,
       I have only found one (1) Blakely patented projectile, Patent #3087 and is illustrated in the first drawing below. It was produced in limited numbers by Blakely's Ordnance Company and was not introduced into the U.S.
       My question is this- if Blakely only manufactred one design then who patented the second projectile shown below that everyone refers to as a 'Blakely/Preston"?? Do we call it a Blakely merely because it was fired from a Blakely gun?  becuase we usually name a projectile  after the person who patented it, or if not know, by where it was made.  Comments?
Best Regards,
John aka Bart
« Last Edit: February 13, 2012, 08:19:58 PM by John D. Bartleson Jr. »

Pete George

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Re: Blakely??
« Reply #1 on: February 14, 2012, 10:56:07 PM »
  The "operating principle" of the projectile in the 2nd illustration was patented by Blakely in his British Patent #1863-1286.  See page 97 in the D&G 1993 Edition for details about its manufacturer, the firm of Fawcett, Preston & Co. of Liverpool England, which also manufactured Blakely's cannons.  Also see: http://captainblakely.org/FirstManufacture.aspx

  The projectile in the 2nd illustration was fired from a 3.5"-caliber Blakely Rifle with 6 deep hook-slant grooves  (mentioned at the above-linked Blakely website as "ratchet" grooves).  Like the Tri-flanged Blakely shell, the Hex-flanged shell had no sabot of any kind, because the flanges fit the grooves with no need for the projectile to expand into them.

  I must comment about Illustration #1.  In it, no provision is shown which would keep the sabot disc from simply spinning on the projectile's flat iron base when the sabot gripped the cannon's rifling.  I believe sabot-slippage would have been prevented by the "angular post" mentioned in the Blakely patent I read in 1993.

  Interestingly, your Illustration #1 is a very good representation of the Type 1 CS Blakely Plate shell shown on page 98 of D&G-1993 ...except that the actual shell has an "angular post" (in this case, square) cast as part of the shell's iron base.  The short sqaure post fit through a corresponding square hole in the copper sabot, which was held on the projectile's base by a flush-fitting bolt and round iron washer.  See photo of that shell's base and sabot on page 96 of the D&G-1993 book.

  In D&G 1980, Tom Dickey wrote: "This sabot appears to have been picked up from Blakely, who in 1863 patented a very similar projectile in England.

  A third type of Confederate Adaptation of Blakely's "angular post" anti-sabot-slippage design was found at the CS Richmond Naval Ordnance Works when the city fell to the yankees in April 1865.  It is shown in two diagrams in Abott's 187 book.  See Plate 5, figures 39 & 40.  You have to look closely to see the short square iron projection at the center of those projectiles' flat iron base -- but it is definitely there.

  Note:  I've called the CS Blakely Plate Type 1 and Type 2 sabot a "Plate-sabot" because its whole top is flat (even prior to firing) ...like Brooke's ratchet-plate sabot.  For comparison, the top of an unfired Disc-sabot (such as the Mullane/Tennessee-sabot) is a convex curve.  I believe the term "disc" comes from the ancient Greek discus, used in the Olympic Games, whose top is a convex curve. 

Regards,
Pete
« Last Edit: February 14, 2012, 11:24:06 PM by Pete George »

John D. Bartleson Jr.

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Re: Blakely??
« Reply #2 on: February 15, 2012, 06:13:26 PM »
To All Interested;
     My first drawing above was drawn from Holley's Ordnance and Armor and described as Blakely's design.  It is also shown in Pete's URL reference above.
     I think everyone knows that the second drawing is a projectile fired in Blakely's gun.  My original question was who patented it? since no one seems to have its patent, it really can't be debated. Perhaps we need to revert to Preston, its manufacturer.
    Pete, you are correct,  my pasted copy of patent #3087 was not totally complete since I could not copy and paste its drawings.  There were three images, drawings 1 and 3 below and Drawing 2 which showed only his plan for a novel way to load powder and shell into his cannon.
    Drawing 1 was a cup type sabot which looks very similar to a sabpt behind Mike's posting of the two sabots.  It apears to have a very slight dovetail on the shell base, but not on the sabot.  The words "angular post" and the other phrase you mentioned appears no where in the 3087 patent, which you also reference on page 93 of your book.
    In Drawing 3 there apears to be two (2) bolts/screws holding the sabot onto the shell base.  Also, you are correct in saying that my shell  in the first drawing has no provisions to prevent sabot slipping, but none were shown in the drawing either.
Regards,
john
P.S.  Pete not everyone has Abbots plates perhaps you should show the plate.
« Last Edit: February 15, 2012, 09:23:07 PM by John D. Bartleson Jr. »

Dave the plumber

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Re: Blakely??
« Reply #3 on: February 16, 2012, 07:11:24 AM »
  what is the rod through the breech in the first two drawings  ??

John D. Bartleson Jr.

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Re: Blakely??
« Reply #4 on: February 16, 2012, 09:40:12 AM »
Dave,
You have to read the patent description to get the details but basically it is Blakely's proposed method of pulling powder bag and projectile into the gun barrel through the rear of the breech. Weird yes?
John

John D. Bartleson Jr.

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Re: Blakely??
« Reply #5 on: February 16, 2012, 09:51:50 AM »
Pete,
With regard to your comment that patent 1286 describing gun rifling and projectile design and construction and patented by Blakely.
Thanks to Mr. Steven Roberts, owner of the URL you recently posted, concerning this thread and the other one of this nature,
I now have a copy, with drawing, of the Blakely patent 1286 of 22 May 1863, Rifling Gun etc.  and it describes only the hook slant rifling for his proposed gun, not one mention of the projectile and its construction.
Best Regards,
John aka bart

Steve Phillips

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Re: Blakely??
« Reply #6 on: February 16, 2012, 10:22:32 AM »
I don't understand why people want to call a segmented Selma a Blakeley just because it was fired in that gun. Are all the other segmented Selma shells also Blakeley? Poor old Selma.
Steve Phillips

Pete George

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Re: Blakely??
« Reply #7 on: February 16, 2012, 10:51:19 PM »
  Steve, those segmented "Selma" shells are 3.67"-caliber, and there are no records of Blakely ever producing a 3.67"-caliber Rifle.

  Therefore, I have not been calling those segmented shells CS Blakely Plate shells for any reason involving what kind of cannon fired them. 

  As mentioned in a recent discussion here, I've been calling those shells a CS Blakely type (ever since 1993) because of their "angular post" anti-slippage sabot and the fact that several specimens have been found with the (mis-spelled) name "Blakeley" stamped into the flat top of the copper sabot.  Some readers here choose not to believe the stamped name in the sabot is an Identification name, like "Brooke" is stamped into Brooke ratchet-plate sabots.  But none of the disbelievers have been willing to post an alternative explanation for Blakely's name being stamped into some of the sabots.

Regards,
Pete
« Last Edit: February 16, 2012, 10:54:01 PM by Pete George »

Pete George

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Re: Blakely??
« Reply #8 on: February 17, 2012, 12:50:47 AM »
  Since some readers continue to dismiss my reasoning about Blakely being the originator of the so-called "Preston" shells, let's come at the question from another direction than just the Blakely patents.  Here is my reasoning.

  Blakely patented a unique type of "sawtooth" rifling, with the intention of using it in his rifled cannons for firing his Hex-Flanged projectiles (which some people still insist is a "Preston" shell.)  Very importantly, with the single exception of a non-dug 8-incher of unknown provenance, those Hex-Flanged shells exist only in 3.5" and 4"-calibers.  The following information regarding those two calibers of Blakely Rifles and their flanged-projectile rifling is from the book by Hazlett, Olmstead, and Parks, titled "Field Artillery Weapons of the Civil War".

Page 203, the 3.5" Blakely Type 4 Rifle:
  "Rifling was changed from seven conventional flat grooves of right-hand twist for Type 6 to six sawtooth or flanged projectile grooves for type 4.

Page 205, the 4" Blakely Rifle:
  "Recoveries at Fort Branch, North Carolina include a number of Blakely shells with six spiral flanges to engage the grooves of rifling.  Ash Harrison has determined that these shells still fit the bore of the 4-inch Blakely Rifle also recovered from the Roanoke River [at Fort Branch] after more than a century of submersion.  Thus it is now apparent that the type 7 Blakely rifling pattern is not sawtooth, but of the preguided [a.k.a. "shunt"] principle.  On their guiding sides the grooves curve sharply to rotate the projectile with minimum wedging.  On the trailing side the grooves curve gently to provide space for the supporting buttress portion of each flange on the projectile."
(End of my quoting from the Hazlett, Olmstead, & Parks book.)

  Please note that Hazlett, Olmstead, & Parks, for reasons which are obvious in the quoted text, specifically identify those Hex-Flanged shells as Blakely shells.  Furthermore, they did so in 1988, so those astute gentlemen cannot be merely relying on my 1993 books naming of the Hex-Flanged shells as being Blakely's design.

  In his book titled "Civil War Heavy Explosive Ordnance," Jack Bell says:
"Two other projectile designs -- both flanged -- were used in Blakely rifles that used the shunt system.  Both are actually Blakely designs ..."

  We know for certain that the Hex-Flanged shell in the famous 1865 Charleston SC photo were labeled by the yankee photographer, not the Confederates.  Where did he get the name "Preston" for it?  Logic suggest she found the name on the shipping-crate from its manufacturer ...which was the Fawcett, Preston Co. of Liverpool England, the manufacturer of Blakely's cannon-designs and projectile-designs.

  Which of the following two scenarios do you readers think is more likely to be the correct one?
Scenario 1:  Blakely himself designed the Hex-Flanged flanged projectile for use in his six-groove "sawtooth" pre-guiding/shunt rifled cannons.
Scenario 2: Some unknown engineer at Fawcett, Preston & Co. designed the Hex-Flanged projectile for use in Blakely's cannons. 

  While you are thinking that over, please note that the HO&P book's "known survivors" of Blakely's sawtooth pre-guided/shunt rifling system cannons are marked 1862, which is one year before his British Patent application for the rifling.  My point is that (just as happened in America), in some cases cannons and projectiles got manufactured a significant amount of time before a Patent for them was issued.

Regards,
Pete
« Last Edit: February 17, 2012, 02:49:37 PM by Pete George »

alwion

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Re: Blakely??
« Reply #9 on: February 17, 2012, 08:51:20 AM »
I had a comment, but it was about the blakely sabot picture, which I now can't find. Looking this over, I think a whole page is gon from this post. Any idea where it went?

emike123

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Re: Blakely??
« Reply #10 on: February 17, 2012, 09:15:13 AM »
Someone else asked about that yesterday and found it.  I think the confusion is because some of this discussion started under another thread:

http://bulletandshell.com/forum/index.php?topic=355.0

alwion

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Re: Blakely??
« Reply #11 on: February 17, 2012, 05:40:47 PM »
Thanks Mike, that was it. :)   The Picture that was posted of the Blakely mark in the other post was not spelled the same, as Blakeley. Were all the marked pieces all spelled incorrectly, or were some spelled right? If they are all misspelled, could have been a totally different guy altogether.

Pete George

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Re: Blakely??
« Reply #12 on: February 17, 2012, 07:13:28 PM »
  The Hazlett, Olmstead, & Parks book on civil war Field Artllery cannons lists a "surviving" civil war era Blakely cannon on which the stamped name has the same mis-spelling seen on the sabots we've been discussing ..."Blakeley".

Regards,
Pete

alwion

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Re: Blakely??
« Reply #13 on: February 18, 2012, 11:35:35 AM »
Thats interesting. Early immigrants often Americanized there names, example Brown and Browne. . Could be a mis-spelling, name change, relative, or different person entirely. Were some of the sabots stampings spelled correctly?  I understand the quest for written documentation through patent or official letters, but if its a confederate copy of a shell not actually produced by Blakely himself, I would assume that written information on the exact confederate modifications to the blakely patent could have been destroyed after the war. We have lost so much info to time. Documented info on the Union stuff is hard to find, Confederate even more so.  Did the Confederates even have a Patent system? and how complete was it?
so:
1. were all the spellings the same on all sabots or were some calibers stamped one way, some another, maybe indicating arsenal of production?
2. Did the confederates even have a patent system for there designs?
3. Has Blakely ever been seen stamped on a different style sabot than the 4 sided post? excluding obvious english shells
4.what field calibers have we seen this 4 sided post on? 2.5", 2.9,3.6,3.67,  any others?
5. What field calibers have we actually seen this name stamp on?
6. Has Blakely been seen stamped on the cloverleaf style shown in the other post, or is that another thing entirely?
7 What caliber was the Blakeley cannon?
I guess I'm looking for a pattern, if anyone can help with the above info
« Last Edit: February 18, 2012, 12:19:25 PM by alwion »

emike123

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Re: Blakely??
« Reply #14 on: February 18, 2012, 12:17:58 PM »
Info on the Confederate Patent Office: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confederate_Patent_Office