Name this sabot?

[CanisterD]

Mike, good luck finding enough of those 'tootsie rolls' to build your canister round, it only took me about 15 years of digging thru those 'anything for a dollar' boxes to come up with enough do do mine ...    The complete dug round I have with a portion of the tin sides rusted away, and the shot showing thru came from Dan Poppins' collection, and I got it 10-12 years ago.  Dave G

[Jine]

   Does anyone know of other battlefield where Dyer bullet / slugs or sabot were recovered?

Doug

AKA

Treadhead

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

  I'm brand new to this forum and really enjoyed this thread; I dug this example on the field of Brandy Station last Thursday:



  This will not be new to Pete, who identified for me (thanks again, Pete!).

  Jine (Douglas)

[emike123]

Welcome.  Presumably you provided Pete with measurements which are very helpful for ID'ing things such as this.

I approved you yesterday after a search of your IP address to see that you weren't on a Spam list or based in Pakistan or some such place and after Googling your handle which is very creative.  Is this the reference or just a coincidence:

JINE THE CAVALRY


CHORUS: 
If you want to have a good time, jine the cavalry!
Jine the cavalry! Jine the cavalry!
If you want to catch the Devil, if you want to have fun,
If you want to smell Hell, jine the cavalry!

We're the boys who went around McClellian,
Went around McClellian, went around around McClellian!
We're the boys who went around McClellian,
Bully boys, hey! Bully boys, ho!

CHORUS

We're the boys who crossed the Potomicum,
Crossed the Potomicum, crossed the Potomicum!
We're the boys who crossed the Potomicum,
Bully boys, hey! Bully boys, ho!

CHORUS

Then we went into Pennsylvania,
Into Pennsylvania, into Pennsylvania!
Then we went into Pennsylvania,
Bully boys, hey! Bully boys, ho!

CHORUS

The big fat Dutch gals hand around the breadium,
Hand around the breadium, hand around the breadium!
The big fat Dutch gals hand around the breadium,
Bully boys, hey! Bully boys, ho!

CHORUS

Ol' Joe Hooker, won't you come out of The Wilderness?
Come out of The Wilderness, come out of The Wilderness?
Ol' Joe Hooker, won't you come out of The Wilderness?
Bully boys, hey! Bully boys, ho!

CHORUS

[Jine]

Thank you for the welcome, emike123! I did provide Pete with the dimensions at his request, 3" in diameter, 7/16" in height, etc. He also pointed out its septagonal shape which I overlooked, and really doesn't show up well in the image I provided here. He stated that the shape indicated it was fired by a 3" ordnance rifle, something else I learned in short order!

You have me all figured out, just with four little letters, and now that ditty is stuck playing in my head. Something of a romantic and knight errant, I find pleasure in the thought of J.E.B. Stuart singing for Ol' Joe Hooker to make his presence known in the midst of battle. I'm something of a cav guy with a passion for arty.

I'm thrilled to have found your forum, and look forward to the enlightenment to come. A quick follow-up question if I may- there may be a wide range and amount of variables in play here, but what is the likely maximum distance this sabot would have traveled? I was surprised to have found it at all where I did, and the idea of it being Federal makes it all the more perplexing.

Thanks again, I'm glad to have found y'all!

Jine

[emike123]

Is it a canister base?  If so they were not used at long ranges.  I seem to recall 300 yards or less was the guideline.

For a full listing of the range tables for the 3" Ordnance rifle, go to Jack Melton's site civilwarartillery.com, click on "technical information" and then "range tables" and then scroll about halfway down to find them for the 3in Ordnance rifle.  Max listed for a 3in Ordnance rifle firing a case shot projectile at 16 degrees elevation and a 1lb charge is 4,180 yards.  It would take 17 seconds to reach its target.

Happy to have others chime in here and correct me / add to the discourse.

Jine the cavalry artillery!

[Jine]

You know, I didn't even think to look there; Melton's site has been of great benefit in the past. D.S. Freeman's landmark work Lee's Lieutenants has a surprising amount of information in its appendices, I'll check there too. Thanks for doing the preliminary digging at civilwarartillery.com.

Jine the artillery; I've never thought of that , but it would have made a great username; I use jinethecavalry at a few other sites, but it's so blatant that I started shortening it to Jine.

Thanks again for your help, enjoy that weekend!

[Pete George]

Jine wrote:
> Does anyone know of other battlefield where Dyer bullet / slugs or sabot were recovered?

  First... there were no Dyer bullets.  Dyer Canister contained pieces of a round lead rod which was about 5/8" in diameter, cut into pieces which were approximately 3/4"-long.  Thus, we call them Dyer Canister "slugs."

  I was hoping some other diggers & collectors here would post their answers to your question, because I do not believe I know everything there is to know.  Since nobody else has spoken up, here is my reply to your question.

  I should begin by stating that Dyer's Canister is quite rare version of canister.  Jine, on a strict "number of specimens known" scale of rarity, your 3" Dyer Canister sabot was one of the very rarest items found at the DIV hunt ...even more rare than some of the Confederate buttons and buckles found at that hunt.   

  The "Field-recovered" evidence indicates Dyer Canister ammo was used almost only by the Army of the Potomac, and only in the first 24 months following the Battle of Manassas (july 1861).  The overwhelming majority of fired Dyer Canister sabots and slugs have come from 1862-to-mid-1863 battle sites in Virginia.

  In my 34 years of living in Virginia and digging for artillery projectiles at many dozens of major and minor Virginia battlesites, I've found only one Dyer Canister sabot.  It was at the May 1863 battle of Salem Church, which part of the Chancellorsville Campaign.  That was also the only place I've dug any Dyer Canister "slugs."

  Apparently, Dyer Canister was gradually superceded by the arrival of Hotchkiss Canister, which first shows up in mid-1862 sites, and remained in widespread use through the end of the war.

Regards,
Pete

[emike123]

Here's a picture of the bottom of the canister base I got from a member of this forum that was dug in Petersburg.  Pete, as per your request, I have included 7 of the "Tootsie Roll" shaped canister shot with it.

[Jine]

   Pete,

   You just "blew me away", point blank, with your reply. Are you certain by the images that I provided that it is a Dyer? If there is room for question I could mail it to you for your inspection, or we could meet in the area of our capitol. I've been detecting for about 1.5 years, digging more artillery-related (virtually all frags) objects than anything else. In the first half-hour of my very first dig I recovered a Hotchkiss percussion fuse, which until this past weekend was my best find. In three DIV outings I haven't dug a single military buttton, nor anything else personal until I recovered a US belt plate last Saturday. I say all that to say I've been feeling like the Charlie Brown of relic hunting ("I  got a rock"), but after last weekend perhaps things are looking up a bit.

  By the way, it was Treadhead's question that you answered in the beginning of your reply; I replied to him with my find. Another question, prompted by emike123's tootsie roll image. I imagine the answer will be in the negative, but did they ever use iron "slugs"? I found this also last weekend with no idea what it might be, about 5/8ths of an inch long. I'm not inquiring about it being used in Dyer canister, as I take your statement that they used lead slugs at face value. I didn't know if it would fit as being used in another form of projectile; just as likely part of a farming implement, I reckon. Two images here, second one is end-on.

  Thanks for such exciting news, may it hold true.

  Jinetheartillery

[Pete George]

Jine wrote:
> Are you certain by the images that I provided that it is a Dyer?

  I am 100%-certain that your find is a fired Dyer Canister sabot.  The only reason yours looks a bit different from the one in Emike's photo is that the cannon's firing-blast "blew through" the thin center of the sabot.

> If there is room for question I could mail it to you for your inspection, or we could meet in the area of our capitol.

  If you ever come to the Richmond VA area, you are welcome to visit my house and do some hands-on viewing of lots of "cool" civil war artillery projectile relics.

> Another question, prompted by emike123's tootsie roll image. I imagine the answer will
> be in the negative, but did they ever use iron "slugs"?

  Yes, but a different form than the Dyer Canister "tootsie roll" slugs.  In the second half of the war, the Confederates used "foundry & metalwork-shop" floor-sweepings for Canister and for case-shot (inside explosive shells).

> I found this also last weekend with no idea what it might be, about 5/8ths of an inch long.
> I'm not inquiring about it being used in Dyer canister, as I take your statement that they used
> lead slugs at face value. I didn't know if it would fit as being used in another form of projectile

  For any level of certainty in identifying it, you'll need to clean the rust-crust off of it.  I know of a couple of artillery-projectile-related item it might be, but we'll discuss that after it is cleaned.

Regards,
Pete

[Jine]

 Well thanks as always Pete! I'd been wondering about hole in the base since I found it, whether it might had been plow-damaged or something.   

 I'd love to come your way and be exposed to whatever relics you'd like to share. I'm always looking for an excuse to come to Richmond, I love that city. We'll try to make that happen in the next couple of months.

 I'll work on that little iron piece and post it for your opinion. Thank you for sharing your insights, knowledge and wisdom; that is worth a whole lot!

 Thanks too to those who make this forum possible.

  Jine (Douglas)

[emike123]

Video version of your theme song:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bh1YU3YKFBI

[Jine]

  Thanks for that, emike123! I hadn't seen that before, that's a load of Stuart images; a couple of those were new to me. Stuart has his detractors, I ain't one of them, although admittedly he could've spent his time better in MD & PA.

  That's a great rendition of the song, thanks again!

  "Jine"

[CanisterD]

Dunno if this should be directed to "Jine" or Pete G ... it is indeed a Dyer canister base, as Pete said, the 7 groove proves it came from a 3" Ordnance rifle, but that 'perfect' hole in the center has me puzzled ... I have 3-4-5 Dyer bases, one or two with cross straps in its center, one or two w/o, one with a bit of a ragged torn hole in the center, but that one looks drilled. (?)  Couple of my bases are fired, all from Ordnance guns, one or two are unfired.  I have seen Dyer canisters with the lead 'tootsie rolls' as slugs, and with 69 musket balls as shot. I have unfired specimens of both.  Also after 20+ years of collecting, one of the Dyer "long pattern" canisters, battlefield pickup, w/o shot, but I 'reloaded' it with musket balls ... being unable to lay my hands on that many tootsie rolls.   I have also seen a sectioned 3" Parrott case shot, filled with those lead chunks.  So they did have several purposes.   Dave G

[John D. Bartleson Jr.]

Hi Dave G.
   You know that one photograph is worth ten thousand words. Please post some.
Regards,
John