Author Topic: underplugs  (Read 807 times)

Dave the plumber

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underplugs
« on: January 11, 2020, 08:24:51 AM »
    just a thought; but when at shows and when viewing diggers collections, there are always readily amounts of brass Bormann underplugs to be seen.   And as we surmise, these are typically CS manufactured and used.  But, we hardly ever see US iron plugs. Probably 50 to 1 ratio, I would guess.  The US Bormann fuze is noted as being much more reliable than the CS Bormann copy, and the federals used it throughout the war.  The CS copy has a supposedly  dismal record of reliability, and was phased out early in the war.   So... if the CS Bormann copy was ineffective, then why do we see so many brass plugs from blown balls ??
    And I can only figure we only seldom see iron federal plugs because diggers don't know what they are and think they are just a rusted washer or something not worth keeping to them
   Did the Federals use brass underplugs too ??

Dave the plumber

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Re: underplugs
« Reply #1 on: January 14, 2020, 06:14:55 AM »
 I put this post up to help encourage discussion, as new posts have been pretty thin lately....  it was viewed almost 70 times, and nobody has anything to say ??   Oh well....

misipirelichtr

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Re: underplugs
« Reply #2 on: January 14, 2020, 06:30:52 AM »
Dave, just so you won’t be lonely, i’ll toss out a thought.  Brass underplugs give a great signal.  A lot of relic hunters ignore iron signals that don’t scream “shell”.  I’ve found a few iron underplugs over the years; almost all were from one battlefield where I tend to dig iron signals and one was from a ground burst.  I’ve found more brass underplugs by almost a 2:1 ratio.  But I tend to focus on camps, so my sample size is small compared to true big iron diggers like Carl and Rommark. 

CarlS

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Re: underplugs
« Reply #3 on: January 14, 2020, 06:52:56 AM »
Sorry Dave.  I read this at lunch and was in a hurry to get back so figured to reply that night but missed doing so.

Actually I would concur with exactly what misipirelichtr says in that many hunters hunt with some level of discrimination and thus ignore those small iron signals.  As an example I was hunting Cold Harbor with a couple friends a few years back.  She had some acreage and was right in the middle of the battlefield.  Trenches ran right through her yard at one time.  My two friends and I hunted for a few hours and found all sizes of frags mostly from Schenkl shells.  We found very little bullets, no fuses and no brass items that I recall.  Yet there was a good amount of iron signals to be found including some decent size shell frags.  We knew it had been hunted and figured there was nearly no non-ferrous stuff there due to the prior hunters hunting with discrimination.  And even while I typically don't hunt with discrimination I can 'hear' small vrs. large and generally don't dig the really small iron like an under plug would sound.  I would also concur with you that the casual hunter finds one and thinks it is just some 'junk' rather than artillery fusing and it sits in a junk box or gets thrown away.
Best,
Carl

emike123

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Re: underplugs
« Reply #4 on: January 14, 2020, 08:15:48 AM »
I recall Pete George telling me something like the vast majority, but not all, of brass Bormann underplugs are CS. 

speedenforcer

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Re: underplugs
« Reply #5 on: January 14, 2020, 03:25:05 PM »
I would also agree that since they are iron they are ignored more than the brass counter part. They also may not be brought out to sell as much because the dealer knows that they are not as appealing to the buyers as the brass ones.
It's not always "Survival of the fitest" sometimes the idiots get through.

callicles

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Re: underplugs
« Reply #6 on: January 14, 2020, 04:34:06 PM »
I recall Pete George telling me something like the vast majority, but not all, of brass Bormann underplugs are CS.

Here is one of Pete’s comments in reference to CS under plugs from 2011:


“In field artillery calibers (6,12, and 24-pounders), most CS-made Bormanns have a brass under-plug, and most of the US-made ones have an iron under-plug.  However, I [Pete George] have seen plenty of exceptions, meaning CS with iron under-plugs, US with brass under-plugs – enough that I would not say “brass means CS and iron means US.”  (Pete George. 8-5-11).

Dave the plumber

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Re: underplugs
« Reply #7 on: January 14, 2020, 05:15:55 PM »
thanks everyone for their reply.       We all agree upon the iron plugs  not dug as often as  people think they are trash or discriminate them out. I totally agree.     
      But,...     How about this to keep the discussion going - if the CS Bormann fuze was so unpredictable, unreliable and removed from service so early in the war, [ unless more are Federal manufactured and used  more often than modern scholars estimated ] ,  then why are their so many still found ??

speedenforcer

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Re: underplugs
« Reply #8 on: January 14, 2020, 05:43:09 PM »
Well, if Pete is correct and I am sure he is, there are more out there than initially thought because the Federals used them too. Or at least that's what I got out of it.
It's not always "Survival of the fitest" sometimes the idiots get through.

divedigger

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Re: underplugs
« Reply #9 on: January 16, 2020, 07:37:00 PM »
In my small experience I have dug very many brass underplugs and only 1 iron underplug. Almost all of the areas I have found the brass underplugs the area was Federal artillery impact zones. Only a couple of underplugs I have found were in CS artillery impact zones and they had screwdriver type slots while all the US underplugs had spanner holes, including the iron one.

Dave the plumber

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Re: underplugs
« Reply #10 on: January 16, 2020, 08:35:58 PM »
                 thanks for the input, Dave !!