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Author Topic: British 1.7 inch Whitworth bolt for 3 pdr rifle;  (Read 8115 times)

John D. Bartleson Jr.

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British 1.7 inch Whitworth bolt for 3 pdr rifle;
« on: September 14, 2011, 02:48:19 PM »
To All l Interested;
    I had mistakenly posted this projectile on the 'Bullet' forum due to misunderstood measurements from the owner.
     In fact its side flat to flat measurement is 1.7 inches, a good match for the 1.7 inch (3pdr) Whitworth rifled cannon.
     Any thoughts or comments would be appreciated.
Regards,
John aka Bart
« Last Edit: September 14, 2011, 02:55:40 PM by John D. Bartleson Jr. »

John D. Bartleson Jr.

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Re: British 1.7 inch Whitworth bolt for 3 pdr rifle;
« Reply #1 on: September 15, 2011, 10:31:23 AM »
Added Note;
     the above rifled ball of 1.7 inch diameter has the same diameter at the British 1.7 inch 'baby' Whitworth Shell as shown below.  Both were purchased from the same source.
Regards,
John aka Bart

John D. Bartleson Jr.

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Re: British 1.7 inch Whitworth bolt for 3 pdr rifle;
« Reply #2 on: September 19, 2011, 04:24:16 PM »
I feel like I am talking to myself on this one. :)
Regards,
John

divedigger

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Re: British 1.7 inch Whitworth bolt for 3 pdr rifle;
« Reply #3 on: September 19, 2011, 05:32:05 PM »
I think it's because nobody knows what to say, but thanks for the magnificent trip, David

CarlS

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Re: British 1.7 inch Whitworth bolt for 3 pdr rifle;
« Reply #4 on: September 20, 2011, 01:09:16 AM »
Sorry for the silence as I've been quite busy lately and, as David said, I don't know what to add.  These look similar to the test shot that I believe Jack Melton wrote an article about in the NSTCW but I'm not sure if that's the case.   Perhaps Jack will see this and can elucidate.
Best,
Carl

Jack Wells

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Re: British 1.7 inch Whitworth bolt for 3 pdr rifle;
« Reply #5 on: September 20, 2011, 06:32:21 PM »
Rifled Spheres,they tested them in several sizes,from some drawings I've seen some were spherical,and some looked to be not quite spheres.but some what elongated Will check my notes next week,am in the process of departing  for a Military reunion.
Jack
Charles.J.Wells (Jack)
SGM. U.S.A. Ret.

mccaul

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Re: British 1.7 inch Whitworth bolt for 3 pdr rifle;
« Reply #6 on: September 26, 2011, 08:41:52 AM »
Saw your post about the amount of black powder in a 15 inch Rodman shell but when I went back to post a response I could not find it.  So, I thought I would add it to another inquiry.  One of Rodman's reports states that a "15-inch shell, 2.5 in. thick, will contain about 17 lbs of powder".  That being said the 184 Navy Ordnance Instructions states that it would take 13 pounds of powder but they note that "the weight of charges for shells will vary slightly from those given in the table according to the sizes of the grain and the density of the powder".  Bottom line - it varies.

John D. Bartleson Jr.

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Re: British 1.7 inch Whitworth bolt for 3 pdr rifle;
« Reply #7 on: September 26, 2011, 09:03:46 AM »
Hello Ed,
    Good to see you again.  I had removed the post due to no replies and to make roomf for others.
Thank you for the powder data and didn't realize that the grain size wold differ as in the propellant grain sizes.  Learn something new each day. :)
Best Regards,
John

John D. Bartleson Jr.

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Re: British 1.7 inch Whitworth bolt for 3 pdr rifle;
« Reply #8 on: September 29, 2011, 10:04:38 AM »
To All Interested;
     The following is an email I received from a friend in Ireland:
"Hi John,
 
I just thought you like might an update on my research on the Whitworth projectiles.
 
I emailed the Royal Artillery Museum and got a reply from the Collections Manager. They only have ammunition for the 12 pounder in their collection but they have a Whitworth gun of 1.3 inch calibre (see attached picture). I then spoke to the Keeper of the Guns at the Royal Armouries Museum at Fort Nelson. They again only have 12 pounder Whitworth ammunition (which is on loan from the Royal Artillery) and have never seen a spherical rifled projectile. I have found references to spherical shot being fired from Whitworth guns as part of the original trials.
 
J. Emerson Tennent in his book "The Story of the Guns" 1864 has an illustration of two experimental projectiles being fired from a Whitworth, it is a pity that there is no mention of the calibre of the projectiles and you can't quite see the spherical shot in great detail (see attached file).  I have also downloaded a copy of "Whitworth on Guns and Steel" 1873 and in this book Whitworth does talk about rifled spheres, "The firing of rifled spheres is a matter of considerable importance. I have frequently loaded a gun with 6 rifled spheres, which fly together like a covey partridges, and would provide very formidable in attacking an enemy's boats. The practice required for gunners may also be made by rifled spheres, by loading the gun with only one-third of the usual charge of powder, and a considerable saving of ammunition may thereby be effected". From my understanding it seems that rifled spheres were designed to be fired in multiples from a gun against iron clad ships. I think that Whitworth saw an early advantage in having the ability of firing both elongated bolts and rifled spheres from the same gun but in his later experiments he proved that the elongated bolt proved to be more effective against iron plate armour than the spherical shot.
 
Well that is all I can find out about the rifled spherical shot, it looks to be extremely rare and there doesn't seem to be any in England or anywhere else!!
 
Over the past few day's I have been considering selling both of the Whitworth projectiles, from what I have seen there is a greater collectors market in America than in England for Whitworths. I was wondering if you might know of anyone or any auction house that might be interested in them?
 
Thank you again for all your help over the past few weeks, it has been extremely helpful.
 
Regards,
 
John Burns"


Regards,
John aka Bart


divedigger

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Re: British 1.7 inch Whitworth bolt for 3 pdr rifle;
« Reply #9 on: September 29, 2011, 08:06:31 PM »
great information, thank you

John D. Bartleson Jr.

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Re: British 1.7 inch Whitworth bolt for 3 pdr rifle;
« Reply #10 on: September 30, 2011, 10:36:45 AM »
To All Interested;
      To add to this post I would like to illustrate the larger rifled spheres found in the U.S. most have been painted with the words "Fort Monroe". They may have been test fired by the Fort, however I don't believe there is any record of them being used in service. Below is an actual 4.62 inch version and my illustration  of the same.
Regards,
John
« Last Edit: September 30, 2011, 10:39:07 AM by John D. Bartleson Jr. »

John D. Bartleson Jr.

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Re: British 1.7 inch Whitworth bolt for 3 pdr rifle;
« Reply #11 on: October 07, 2011, 10:36:14 AM »
Dear Pete,
      Do you have any comments about these little 1.7 inch rifled spheres? Or the larger calibler ones?
Regards,
John