12 pounder canister?

[WRE]

These items were found at a military site along the Oregon Trail in Nebraska. The two iron plates are not necessarily related but wondered if they might be. The lead round balls are approximately .65 caliber. The other plate is flat surfaced (pitted) and it is 1/8 in.+ in thickness. I have looked at canister images online but have not come across a similar plate with the 12 indentations. Are these components possibly an early version of 12 pounder canister?

[scottfromgeorgia]

Can you provide the diameter, please?

[WRE]

Approximately 4 5/16"

[Steve Phillips]

I find this interesting because I have a similar plate that I found at Selma. I've found over a hundred canister plates of various sizes over the years but only one like this. Mine is the same size as yours but appears to be for some sort of grape. It has the 12 indentions plus some more. It has a hole in the center and a raised ring on the opposite side like yours. Always wondered about this plate.

[CarlS]

Quite interesting pieces.   Never seen anything like that.   With the center hole the one Steve has might be an attempt to make a grape stand closer to a canister in ball size and count but constructed like a grape stand.  Would take a number of narrow rings. 

[emike123]

I have one (12pdr iron plate with the round indents)  from Shiloh and know another guy who has one from there as well.  Mine doesn't have the center hole.  I will try to post pics at a later time.

[emike123]

Pics of mine from the Shiloh area.  It is 12pdr size.

[WRE]

I find this interesting because I have a similar plate that I found at Selma. I've found over a hundred canister plates of various sizes over the years but only one like this. Mine is the same size as yours but appears to be for some sort of grape. It has the 12 indentions plus some more. It has a hole in the center and a raised ring on the opposite side like yours. Always wondered about this plate.

Pics of mine from the Shiloh area.  It is 12pdr size.

Thanks for showing the different canister plates Steve and emike. With as many as 18 indentations on the bottom layer I am assuming this particular canister was not very tall?

[scottfromgeorgia]

It couldn't be that heavy since it was held together by a sheet of tin, probably wrapped around the cast iron on top and bottom. But that tin would not support a lot of weight.

[Woodenhead]

The records confirm the issue and use of 12 pounder Grape in the eastern and western theaters during 1861-65. They would have had iron balls, not lead. I have seen complete 12 pdr Grape listed in early war invoices from the Virginia foundries. If you wish, I can dig a couple of them out. Pictured below is an excerpt from a Statement of Guns, Ammunition and Artillery Implements on hand and required at Snyders Mill Miss Jany. 28th 1863 composed by Vicksburg's ordnance chief Marshall McDonald. Note separate listings for 12 pounder Grape for the Guns and Howitzers. The only difference was the shape of the sabots. I found a February 1865 report of artillery expenditures the previous month by batteries accompanying the CS Cavalry in VA that included about 30 rounds of 12 pounder Grape. I believe the reason we don't know much about its use is the rarity of excavated examples and the production of most complete stands by the arsenals - not the contractors. The iron balls and round plates were ordered separately from private shops and they were assembled by the govt. employees. These were not canister
It looks like I'll have to post the document separately.

Woodenhead

[Woodenhead]

Here is the document listing 12 pdr. Grape. Note also for the earlier question about what guns the Rebels had - it lists the various cannon at that particular position at that moment in time. A couple of months later, I would expect some new guns to be added and others withdrawn. There are many such lists in the records. For example, the Army of Tennessee that had almost exclusively 6 pounder Guns and 12 pdr. Howitzers at the battle of Stones River (Murfreesboro) on Dec. 31, 1862, fielded almost entirely 12 pdr. Napoleons and a selection of 3 inch and other Rifles at Chattanooga one year later.

W.H. Again, the site will not allow me to post images. I'll try later.

[Woodenhead]

Here, at last!

[scottfromgeorgia]

How can it be grape without a central rod to hold it together?