Bullet and Shell Civil War Projectiles Forum

Author Topic: Rare shrapnel  (Read 37458 times)

Selma Hunter

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Re: Rare shrapnel
« Reply #45 on: July 08, 2017, 08:05:40 AM »
All,

I may be seeing things but it looks like there is a Hale Rocket body on the board.  That would have to be one of the rarest "Artillery" projectiles on the planet.  Help here?

redbob

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Re: Rare shrapnel
« Reply #46 on: July 08, 2017, 09:11:13 AM »
I believe that it is a Hale rocket, or at least it appears to be from the picture. There is so much great looking "eye candy" that it's hard to focus on one thing for long.

CarlS

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Re: Rare shrapnel
« Reply #47 on: July 09, 2017, 12:35:29 AM »
Yes, sure is.  As WoodenHead says, not a huge but impressive.  There are some real gems there.
Best,
Carl

Woodenhead

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Re: Rare shrapnel
« Reply #48 on: July 10, 2017, 10:46:16 AM »
Here are close-ups of some of my favorites from the Lilijenquist collection. They are all great specimens but I only photo'ed those I thought useful for Lee's Thunderbolts. The first is an imported lead-covered 3 inch Clay shell with copper fuze plug - part of a cache dug in a CS fort guarding High Bridge near Farmville, VA. Earlier accounts by E. P. Alexander that the English gun had exploded during its initial test firing were correct. However, Alexander was apparently unaware that the breech had been repaired by Samson & Pae. Records confirm the Clay Rifle was part of the armament at High Bridge. Shrapnel from these shells has been excavated at Bermuda Hundred.

Second is a fired 3.35 inch Archer shell from the downtown Manassas area (not the battlefield). This pattern was designed by Dr. Robert Archer in early 1861 for use by 50 of Virginia's old 4 pounder smoothbores Tredegar had been contracted by the General Assembly to "ream & rifle" in Jan. 1861. Because the understaffed Ironworks was busy with other pressing orders, the rifling process was delayed until Sept. 1861. At that time, the first of these stubby projectiles was cast, "One Box = 25 - 4 pounder Rifle shells at $1.00 each." [Same price as the 3 inch Archer shot & shell.] Sizable quantities were made every month until production ceased at the end of March 1862. Records confirm Tredegar produced a total of 5,380 of these rifled 4 pounder shells and 238 corresponding bolts. [No known examples today.] Note the 1 1/2 inch tall lead sabot has been driven hard against the nose, closing the wide lubrication groove as it was labeled by Dr. Archer in a letter to a customer. In my opinion, "expansion groove" would also be correct as it allowed room for the ring sabot to be driven forward on the tapered 'tail' thereby forcing it into the grooves. Archer's 3 inch projectiles had this groove as well. The presence of two narrow flame grooves helps date this shell's manufacture no earlier that Dec. 1861 when Tredegar added similar flame grooves to its 3 inch shells. In early Jan. 1862, the same grooves were included on the noses of its "winged" James shells like the example pictured earlier in this blog. I know this is a lot to swallow but one last thing. The tie-ring groove extending from the bottom all of these shells is the reason I state the design dates from early 1861. At that time, most of Virginia's field-caliber ammunition was "fixed." Rifled cannon were new and there was no general agreement on how the cartridge bags were to be handled. Proof of this can be seen on the bottom of many of the North's 3 inch Dyer shells where remnants of the tin straps remain. After the CS Ordnance Bureau assumed control of artillery ammunition in June 1861, separate cartridge bags became the rule in Virginia.

The last two photos below show two of the smallest and most unusual projectiles fired by the Army of Northern Virginia. These are CS-made Britten bolts fired by two 2.5 inch Blakely "Mountain Guns" imported from England in 1861. The lead cup sabot remaining on the first example bears the impression of six distinctive lands & grooves. The lathe dimple in the bottom and lines cut into the bearing surface indicate this was among the final "153 shot for steel gun" made in April 1862. It was found at Second Manassas. The other 2.5 inch CS Britten bolt from the Antietam retreat route has lost its sabot and was cast from a different mold pattern with no dimple or lathing. This probably places it among the first "189 Shot for Steel Rifle Gun" made by Samson & Pae in Nov. 1861 for $1.00 each. [Remember, there were no lathe dimples on any field projectiles prior to Feb or March 1862.] That was the cost of the 3 inch and 3.35 inch Archers. In early 1862, S & P charged $2.50 to make similar and much larger 3.5 inch Brittens for the CS Navy's "Steel Guns." A total of 397 bolts and 125 shells of this 2.5 inch pattern were made by Samson & Pae during late 1861 and early 1862. Examples of three different mold patterns are known for this bolt. Samson & Pae was the premier pattern-maker in Richmond. Late in 1862, the two diminutive Blakely guns were sent to the Army of Tenn. They remained in reserve until the 1864 North Georgia campaign. Several hundred 2.5 inch Read shells were made by the Augusta Arsenal early that year. The two imported steel guns accompanied the army on their fateful late 1864 trip to Nashville.

I'll be happy to share the documentation of the previous descriptions with anyone upon request. Lee's Thunderbolts will be footnoted. 

pipedreamer65

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Re: Rare shrapnel
« Reply #49 on: July 11, 2017, 12:34:19 PM »
Beautiful and rare items indeed.  Anyway, I still can't get over that display.


I just finished a 30 pound parrott ground burst that I have been messing with for over a year.  I'll post an image later.

rommack

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Re: Rare shrapnel
« Reply #50 on: July 29, 2017, 03:05:51 PM »
This is a 3.67" sawyer case shot soft burst that I found at Port Hudson.  That still retains all its parts including the case shot balls in asphalt matrix.  It also has its combination fuse.  Thought you guys might enjoy seeing it.

rommack

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Re: Rare shrapnel
« Reply #51 on: July 29, 2017, 03:11:01 PM »
Here's another two shells I dug at Port Hudson.  One is a 20 lb Parrott which still retains some of the case shot balls and also has its time fuse adapter with the time fuse still in place.  The other is a 12 lb soft burst Bormann ball which still has its fuse and all its case shot balls in a sulfur matrix.

speedenforcer

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Re: Rare shrapnel
« Reply #52 on: August 01, 2017, 07:51:06 PM »
 ;) All the different and amazing shrapnel I may just have to start collecting that also.  :)
It's not always "Survival of the fitest" sometimes the idiots get through.

speedenforcer

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Re: Rare shrapnel
« Reply #53 on: August 12, 2017, 04:07:02 AM »
Next question. Are there any known fragments that are fused together in battle like the rare an highly coveted impact fused bullets. I know shrapnel more often than not is iron and therefore less likely to do so as lead bullets would but curious if anyone has heard of said specimens.
It's not always "Survival of the fitest" sometimes the idiots get through.

speedenforcer

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Re: Rare shrapnel
« Reply #54 on: October 17, 2017, 10:32:45 PM »
has anyone ever saw or heard of someone having shrapnel from Fort Sumter. Of course it is out there but I haven't seen or heard of anyone having any.
It's not always "Survival of the fitest" sometimes the idiots get through.

Dave the plumber

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Re: Rare shrapnel
« Reply #55 on: October 26, 2017, 08:09:39 PM »
Jay, you asked about fused together shrapnel earlier. I just saw this post.
    I have a 3.8 Hotchkiss from Gauley Bridge, WV that has a frag piece of another shell stuck in the lead sabot. Kinda neat - different

speedenforcer

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Re: Rare shrapnel
« Reply #56 on: October 26, 2017, 08:11:41 PM »
 :o Wow do you have a picture?
It's not always "Survival of the fitest" sometimes the idiots get through.

divedigger

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Re: Rare shrapnel
« Reply #57 on: October 26, 2017, 10:00:11 PM »
to answer your question about Ft Sumter shrapnel, I don't personally know of anybody that has any, however my wife and I went over to Sumter when we first got married and I walked down on the beach at the edge of the marsh and picked up 2 fragments but she made me put them down. There were more and they are still there.

speedenforcer

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Re: Rare shrapnel
« Reply #58 on: October 27, 2017, 04:45:53 PM »
wow when is the last time you went. Heck my wife would of been pulling lookout duty. Do you really think more is there. Wait that would be a felony to remove. Never mind.  >:(
It's not always "Survival of the fitest" sometimes the idiots get through.

emike123

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Re: Rare shrapnel
« Reply #59 on: October 27, 2017, 10:12:39 PM »
A friend of mine found a couple large projectiles between the low and high tide mark there decades ago.  This made them fair game back then but eventually he was told never to come back.  He also told me that in addition to stones for the fort’s septic field, they used big Mullanes from the bunkers which are still in place for that!