Question about a stamp on a shell...

[scottfromgeorgia]

Pete is the best answer to the question: Why are relic hunters a valuable part of our society? The so-called archaeologists should sit at his feet to see how research is done.

[Pete George]

  Dave and Scott... I'm doing what Tom Dickey did for me -- after he saw that my intense interest in civil war shells wasn't going to be just a short-term thing.  You've heard the expression "Pass the favors onward" / "Pay it forward."

  Thank you very much for taking the time to write the posts.

Regards,
Pete

  

[Pete George]

CWArtillery wrote:
> [...]  The other one has an '8' (number eight) stamped on it.  It is the same size and same font.  Any thoughts on that one?

  I intended to talk about the non-letter marks (such as a number or other type of symbol) in future post.  But since you've brought up the 8-mark on 10-pounder Brooke sabots...

  As you know, Confederate projectiles are almost never-ever marked with just a number.  I haven't yet been able to come up with a "trackback-code" reason for single-digit numbers.

  But I have thought of an entirely different kind of reason for using the Omega-mark, the 8 mark, and the O with a "dash" THROUGH one side of the O.  I think they could be a "substitution" for Selma's G mark.  All of those three symbols have a close resemblance to a capital letter G.  (Squint at them and you'll see what I mean.)  Also, all of those three symbols are found only in areas which were supplied by Selma.

  If you were a Confederate metal-finisher and you broke your G-stamp, and couldn't get a replacement in the mid-to-late-wartime Confederacy, you might decide to approximate the shape of a G by using a similar-looking symbol.  Example: stamp an O mark and then add a short "dash-line" across the the right side of the O.  It will now look very similar to a G.  Also: Turn the Omega onto its left side -- it will then look like a G.

  We know that Selma was the chief supplier of artillery projectiles for the Mobile Bay defenses.  I know of some CS Borman-fuzed shells which were found dumped in Mobile Bay at an 1865 site.  They had the O-with-dash mark.

  We also know that some 10-pounder Brooke shells are absolutely identical except for having a G mark or 8 mark on their sabot.  So, either two different manufacturerers were producing absolutely-identical Brooke shells -- or they were produced at the same place and a "substitute G mark had to be used to mark some of them.

  I do realize this reasoning is "a stretch" ...but I can't think of any other logical reason for the "G-lookalikes" found only in areas supplied by Selma... the Omega mark, 8, and O-with-dash-mark.  If somebody can think of a better explanation, particularly for the Omega and the O-with-dash, please share your thinking.  

Regards,
Pete

[misipirelichtr]

I'll add two more markings.  I have three inch Read round nose bolts with "14" and "15" very clearly stamped into the upper wrought iron band.  Mr. George, ny thoughts on these?

[John D. Bartleson Jr.]

Thanks to all who posted on this most interesting tread.
Pete, the variety of your knowledge never ceases to amaze me.  I think your posts were really valuable to this subject.  Thank you again.
With Myr Regards,
John aka Bart

[Pete George]

  You're most welcome, Bart.  Thank you for the knowledge I gained from your groundbreaking book.

  Let me mention in particular, the radiograph photos in it were an inspiration to me, way back when I was a tadpole.  Those "x-ray views" showed me very intriguing things I couldn't see by looking at the shells in Tom's collection.  He gave me education about how the shells worked "externally."  I herewith give your book (and thus, you) public credit for instigating my deep interest in their internal construction and functioning.

Best regards,
Pete

[CarlS]

Early on in my collecting when I lived in Memphis someone showed me John's radiograph book and I thought that was so cool and a must have for an artillery collector.  As Pete said, it showed how they worked internally and made the projectiles more than just a 'hunk of iron' as my dad used to refer to them. (Sidebar:  As a military brat my dad didn't appreciate hauling all that weight around every time he got orders!    )  I got the address to request John's book and ordered two of them; one for me and one for Jack Melton.  Many years later Jack took my book to John's when he visited him and got it signed which I greatly appreciate.  It's still one of my favorite books.  Thanks John for that early education!

[Selma Hunter]

As I recall there was a memorandum/directive sent out by either Mallet or Gorgas late in the war - 1864 if my banana pudding brain still works - requiring that ammunition be marked with a "point of origin" [my words in quotes] stamp or identifying mark for the purposes stated in a preceding posting.  My point is that this would seem to imply that while SOME manufacturers may have used identifying marks from the git-go some others (single operators producing at a given location) may have omitted the use of same until the (Gorgas/Mallet?) directive arrived later in the war. 

FWIW, I have in my research papers irrefutable evidence that many "Selma" projectiles were actually produced by several foundries up the Cahaba River Basin north of Selma and subsequently shipped to Selma for inspection, acceptance/rejection and finish processing.  i.e. the C. B. Churchill Company charged the Selma Arsenal a fee of $0.35 to tap a Bormann ball and (if the banana pudding is working) and an additional $0.05 to tap the underplug hole.  Inasmuch as there were probably a half dozen foundries north of Selma making lots large and small of varying projectiles and sending them down the Alabama and Tennessee Rivers Railroad to the Arsenal the potential for mixing the otherwise unattributed product(s) is obvious.  I suspect that some of the earlier (say mid-1862) production was among the first to be stamped simply to sort things out (literally) at the Arsenal well prior to the 1864(?) directive.  This would/could also explain multiple markings attributed to single points of "production".

Pete?  Mike?  Carl?  Guys? Your Thoughts?

[John D. Bartleson Jr.]

Bill,
  I believe yours and Pete's thoughts are in alignment. 
Pete and Carl,
     Thank you for your kind words of appreciation.  I was encouraged by my C.O. Dewitt Moody, to put together a Field Guide for ACW ordnance.  For at that time the military had no identification or guidelines to deal with 'cannonballs'.  Thanks to the efforts and cooperation of Bob Noland at our EOD Technical Facility we were able to include the radiographs.  Which, by the way, have never been repeated.  My goal now is to produce color plates of them.  My color plates are more than likely the first since Abbot had the line drawings made to include in "The Campaign Against Richmond".  I owe my thanks to Doug Adams for teaching me the software tecnniques to make them.
    Currently I have created about 300 American Civil War projectiles and their fuzes and about 125 British shells and fuzes. From time to time I will post one to help illustrate an ongoing subject.
Best Regards,
John aka Bart

[PIA]

John aka Bart,
I bought your book back in 1972 or 1973 and have it yet.  GREAT book!
Best egards,
Gary

[John D. Bartleson Jr.]

Gary,
   I do hope that the Field Guide has been useful to you.  It was meant to illustrate the basic patterns known to exist at that time. Fortunately for all of us collectors and historians have found untold quantities and new patterns of projectiles and fuses/fuzes and have produced many more fine books on the subject such as Ripley, Dickey's two books, Dickey and George's two volumes, Melton, Jones and Jack Bell's, just to name the ones I know of.
    It is a proven fact that private collectors and historians have produced more books on ACW ordnance than any state or government endeavors. If it were not for the members of this forum, countless pieces would lie rusting and deteriorating and lost forever.
    so my hat is off to each of you. Just be careful, don't take chances and enjoy one of our most interesting and challenging hobbies.
With Best Regards,
John aka Bart

[alwion]

sorry asked questions as I read down the forums. saw it after, will ask there:)

[alwion]

Have a 10" columbiad shell stamped with a T from Ft Fisher, any idea what the T stands for?