Bullet and Shell Civil War Projectiles Forum

Author Topic: Question about a stamp on a shell...  (Read 21187 times)

emike123

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Re: Question about a stamp on a shell...
« Reply #15 on: July 03, 2011, 10:18:17 PM »

misipirelichtr

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Re: Question about a stamp on a shell...
« Reply #16 on: July 03, 2011, 11:39:43 PM »
I've got a Tredagar 10 lb Read with a "C" stamped on it.   Classic Tredagar base, wood fuse.

Also, I have a couple of 6 lb Borman fused spherical case balls stamped "O".  Both were recovered at Vicksburg, and I believe them to be from the A.B. Reading Foundry there.

Aquachigger

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Re: Question about a stamp on a shell...
« Reply #17 on: July 04, 2011, 05:58:07 PM »
JohnB...This is probably one of the more strange ones I have. It's on a 9" Dahlgren ball.

divedigger

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Re: Question about a stamp on a shell...
« Reply #18 on: July 04, 2011, 06:00:03 PM »
I have found several 10" Columbiad balls with T stamped on them, no idea where they were made

Jack Wells

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Re: Question about a stamp on a shell...
« Reply #19 on: July 04, 2011, 11:41:02 PM »
If you will check real close, you will sometimes find an "H" stamped above the "S&P" ="Hubard Simpson & Pae".The late Tom Dickey many decades ago showed me a photo copy  of an invoice in the National Archeives, for Archer Percussion Fuzes (ID was from description of the fuzes). The Invoice had the letter heading of Hubard Simpson & Pae. In some later research,I found that William .J.Hubard ran a foundry in Richmond known as the Washington Foundry,and Samson & Pae ran a machine shop and did finishing work for Hubard.
At one time according to some very old notes ,I had a long and short Iron Sabot  Reed stamped H over
S&P and a long Reed stamped S&P,the metal was mint and the P in my opinion was never stamped on that shell. All three (3) of my shells came from the late Jerry Wright,and were from the Petersburg area ? These were some of the first items I cleaned using electrochemical reduction,all were 3".
Trust this info.will be of use
Jack Wells
Almost forgot,all three(3) projectiles,were fitted with wood fuze plugs
Charles.J.Wells (Jack)
SGM. U.S.A. Ret.

scottfromgeorgia

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Re: Question about a stamp on a shell...
« Reply #20 on: July 05, 2011, 09:13:08 AM »
Here is an interesting stamp I found when I cleaned a Brooke 6.4 short milled bolt found in the James River. He just put his name on the bolt.

John D. Bartleson Jr.

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Re: Question about a stamp on a shell...
« Reply #21 on: July 05, 2011, 02:45:37 PM »
When new it looked like this:
John

CarlS

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Re: Question about a stamp on a shell...
« Reply #22 on: July 05, 2011, 02:58:43 PM »
John,

Scott's Brooke is a milled base variety which means the sabot is intergal to the shell and the iron lower portion actually expands into the rifling.  It functions much like an Enfield bullet where from the outside it's smooth iron from top to bottom but the bottom view shows a recessed area (cavity) that leaves a thin skirt.  This skirt is expanded into the gun's rifling.  There is no copper plate (sabot) on the base nor is there any need for the base bolt we often associate with a Brook projectile.

They seem quite rare and are not encountered very often.  I would think they would be quite harsh on the bore of the gun.  But they would address the scarcity issue of copper.
Best,
Carl

scottfromgeorgia

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Re: Question about a stamp on a shell...
« Reply #23 on: July 05, 2011, 03:02:29 PM »
Right, Carl. The entire bolt is wrought iron, including the skirt, which functions as the sabot.

John D. Bartleson Jr.

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Re: Question about a stamp on a shell...
« Reply #24 on: July 05, 2011, 04:21:19 PM »
Oops,
  gosh and I know how a milled base functions.  you both are correct and I even had the wrong caliber. :) Well at least the members have a sample of each.
Best Regards,
John
« Last Edit: July 05, 2011, 05:24:06 PM by John D. Bartleson Jr. »

Pete George

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Re: Question about a stamp on a shell...
« Reply #25 on: July 05, 2011, 06:26:24 PM »
  Before saying anything else, I should mention that the markings stamped on CS shells & fuzes are not actually an "Arsenal-mark" (such as the script-A and the 5-point-star on yankee Bormann fuzes).  On CS artillery projectiles and fuzes, the letter-mark SEEMS to be an Ordnance Inspector's mark, written in a special code.  Meaning, the letter was not an initial of the Inspector's name, nor the facility's name.  That being said, it probably represented a major CS arsenal's Chief Inspector.
 
  The fact that in almost all cases only a SINGLE letter was used, rather than the Inspector's personal-name initials, suggest that the single-letter was part of a government-assigned alphabetically coded list, with the single-letter mark representing a particular arsenal or production-facility.  The purpose was to enable the CS Ordnance Department to "track" particularly bad-performing (or good-performing) projectiles back to their producer.  The idea was probably picked up from the yankees.  I've read a yankee artillery officer's report which (in essence) said "The best-performing Bormann fuzes are those which bear the mark of the Frankford Arsenal." 
 
John D. Bartleson Jr. wrote:
>> Mike, thank you for the letter meanings. But where did you get those from?
 
Emike123 replied:
> In the cases of Atlanta and Selma, projectiles were recovered at the arsenal with those markings.  The Samson & Pae attribution is because a shell marked Samson & Pae also had a "Q" stamp on it.  The Tredegar association is a bit looser and I'll let Pete tell about that one if he chooses too.
 
  As Tom Dickey wrote in our 1980 book... it is not known for certain that the G mark represents the Selma Arsenal, but a great many artillery projectile products of Selma have it.
 
  Though there are some exceptions, the general rule is "ammo tended to be used mainly in the vicinity of where it was manufactured."  In other words, ammo produced in a particular state tended to be used mainly in that state or an adjoining state.  For about 25 years, I've been using that rule-of-thumb to deduce the production-origin of various markings.  For example, C-marked shells are seldom found outside of Virginia.
 
  In addition, a key clue for the C-mark's origin is the fact that certain types of shells were produced only at Tredegar.  An example is the "short" 3.4" and 3.5" Read iron-sabot shells for the "Virginia Reamed-&-Rifled 4-pounder Smoothbore" cannon.  The only marking thus far seen on those shells is the C-mark.
 
  Back in the early 1980s, I'd used the "local manufacture, local use" principle to deduce that the D-mark represented an Atlanta facility.  Then when the cache of "unfinished" shells was discovered in an old well at the civil war era Atlanta Machine Works property, the only marked projectile in the well had the D-mark.
 
  About the CS Ordnance Department's code-letter-in-alphabetic-order list I mentioned above:  Please note that the "most commonly seen" letter marks on CS projectiles are in the FIRST 1/5 of the alphabet.  (A, C, D, G, H.)  If you include the letters found on Confederate copper timefuze-adapters (which first appear in very-early 1863), the most-commonly-seen letters (A, C, D, F, G, H, I) are in the first 1/4 of the alphabet.  I suspect that's not a mere coincidence.
 
  (Yes, I know, the commonly-seen Q on copper timefuzes isn't in the first-1/4 of the alphabet ...but it's almost entirely found on fuzes, not projectiles ...and it is the sole exception to the first-1/4 clustering.
 
  I suspect the missing letters in the first-1/4 (B and E) were assigned to arsenals which got captured early in the war, before the coded-list was fully implemented.  (The B and E might have been New Orleans, and Memphis or Nashville).

Important notes:
1- All of the letters past H are very rarely seen ...except for Q when on timefuze-adapters.
2- Nearly all of the "after H" letters have been dug only at Summer-1864-or-later sites.
 
  Here is a list of letters I have observed, and the ordnance type they are MOST OFTEN seen on.  I'll include what I think the letter represents, if I think there's enough evidence to support the theory.
A - Broun 3" shells, dug in Richmond/Petersburg area (might be Bellona Arsenal, in Richmond)
C - Long-model Read shells with iron sabot, 30-pdr. Brooke sabots, also some copper timefuzes, Rains Torpedo fuze, Tredegar Arsenal
D - sabot of 10 and 20-pounder Brooke shells, 20-pounder Long-model Read iron-sabot shells, 10"-caliber Columbiad shells, Atlanta Arsenal
F - copper timefuzes, dug in VA and NC  (might be a major North Carolina arsenal)
G - field-caliber roundshells and Brooke sabots, 3" Read bolts, 3" Archer bolts, Selma Arsenal
H - 10-pounder Long-model Read shells, 3-inch Read with copper sabot, a Richmond-area facility
I - copper timefuzes (dug in VA)
L - Broun 3" shell sabots (dug in VA)
M - heavy-caliber Brooke Ratchet-Ring sabot (dug in VA)
O - field-caliber Bormann-fuzed roundshells (Alabama and Mississippi sites)
Q - copper timefuzes, a single 10-pounder Long-model Read shell, a Richmond-area facility
R - "Selma-Disc" sabots
S - Brooke Milled-Base bolts (dug in the Richmond/Petersburg area)
T - heavy-caliber roundshells (dug in Columbia SC river-dump, and at NC coastline - Fort Fisher area)
Z - 10-pounder Long-model Read shells (dug in VA sites)
 
  As mentioned, that list is letters on shells & fuzes I've personally examined.  As also mentioned, it tells the type of ordnance the mark is MOST OFTEN seen on.  I know it's not a complete list.  Please feel free to add to it.

  There are other marks, which are not letters, but because this post is already extremely long,  I'll discuss them in a later post.
 
  Some further notes:  As Jack Wells mentioned, the "S&P" (Samson & Pae, a foundry & metal-finishing facility in Richmond VA) mark has been seen with a separately-marked H on a 10-pounder Long-model Read.  In addition, the S&P mark with a very-separate Q has been found on another 10-pounder Long-model Read.  To me, this is proof that major projectile-producers were "subcontracting" the lathing/metalfinishing work out to local privately-owned metalwork businesses.  A foundry can cast far more projectiles in a day than it can do the "finishing" work on ...so the overproduction gets sent out to a subcontractor for "finishing."  My point, if it isn't already clear, is that the S&P mark was put onto the shell by Samson & Pae's inspector when the finishing-work was completed there, and the H was applied LATER by the inspector at the larger producer which sent the shells to S&P for finishing-work, as his "mark of acceptance" of S&P's work.

  By "finishing," I mean lathing-work, and chiseling off the mold-sprue, casting-burrs & seam-flashing, and reaming out the crude-cast fuzehole and cutting threads into it.  We know that Adolphus Rahm's Eagle Machine Works metalfinishing shop in Richmond did such work on many 12-pounder Sideloader Case-Shot and Long-model Reads,, then marked them with the personal initials "AR."
 
Regards,
Pete

Note: I edited this post in 2015 only to correct a small but important typo error.
« Last Edit: March 10, 2015, 09:16:35 PM by Pete George »

emike123

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Re: Question about a stamp on a shell...
« Reply #26 on: July 05, 2011, 07:02:02 PM »
Pete:

Thank you for taking the time both over the years to gather this information and today to post it.  As I mentioned early in this thread, this has the potential to be one of the most informative threads on the forum and your contribution has made it thus.  We have a lot of great information here that needs to be recorded.

I have a few shells with "R" on them and they came from the Oconee River dump at Milledgeville.  I think perhaps the fact you did not attribute this location to the letter "R" is that some of this material may have been transported to Milledgeviile before it fell.

I have a backwards "S" stamped 6pdr with the drilled out (for use as a time fuse) CS Bormann fuse that our very own Terry Waxham recovered on his property in Louisiana.

Pete George

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Re: Question about a stamp on a shell...
« Reply #27 on: July 05, 2011, 07:17:12 PM »
  You're welcome.  :)

  Yes... the reason I didn't include a Milledgeville location-association to the R-mark is that insofar as is currently known, Milledgeville GA never produced any artillery projectiles.  Milledgeville wasn't an Arsenal ...it was merely a "depot" (and is so named in the military reports).  In military terminology, a depot is just a storage-and-distribution location for military supplies.  It doesn't manufacture them.

Regards,
Pete

CarlS

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Re: Question about a stamp on a shell...
« Reply #28 on: July 05, 2011, 09:07:44 PM »
Hello,

I've found two 10 lber Brooke shells in the Kennesaw Mountain area.  One had the 'D' marking on it which make sense to be from Atlanta.  The other one has an '8' (number eight) stamped on it.  It is the same size and same font.  Any thoughts on that one?
« Last Edit: July 05, 2011, 09:10:27 PM by CWArtillery »
Best,
Carl

Dave the plumber

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Re: Question about a stamp on a shell...
« Reply #29 on: July 05, 2011, 09:32:47 PM »
  Pete,                 your depth of knowledge on American Civil War artillery boggles my mind.  I can't tell you enough how much myself, and everyone else who has an interest in artillery, appreciates what you have taken the time to learn. But most of all, we appreciate how willing you are to share this hard earned knowledge with us, freely. Truly amazing
     But what is not seen now, is how through your research  what you have deduced through time and scrutiny and dedication, will help the collectors\ researchers \ historians of the future continue adding to the knowledge base. I am sorry for them if they might not have  the pleasure of knowing you and calling you a friend and having you available for conversation and consulting, as we all have.                        David