Bullet and Shell Civil War Projectiles Forum

Author Topic: Bormann Fuze 90 Degree "Pie Slice"  (Read 23566 times)

alwion

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Re: Bormann Fuze 90 Degree "Pie Slice"
« Reply #45 on: February 13, 2015, 03:11:48 PM »
do we have any pictures of a "punched or drilled" perforated borman fuse vs a non perforated "dud" fuse. seen lots of top pictures, never seen a bottom picture at all

CarlS

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Re: Bormann Fuze 90 Degree "Pie Slice"
« Reply #46 on: February 13, 2015, 05:07:37 PM »
Look at this link:
    http://bulletandshell.com/forum/index.php?topic=650
Mike and Pete posted some excellent images of some with various hole punches on the back.
Best,
Carl

callicles

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Re: Bormann Fuze 90 Degree "Pie Slice"
« Reply #47 on: February 13, 2015, 05:18:18 PM »
Here are threads from a couple years back.  It is these from which I drew my conclusions about rebates as CS and 90-degree wedged
Bormanns as US. Since I'm the OP, it should give others an idea where I was coming from when originating this thread.  I also felt it should be
incorporated here to help round out the issues and bridge then and now so that we can see the progress in ideas to date.

http://bulletandshell.com/forum/index.php?topic=586.0

http://bulletandshell.com/forum/index.php?topic=578.msg4079#msg4079

alwion

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Re: Bormann Fuze 90 Degree "Pie Slice"
« Reply #48 on: February 14, 2015, 07:29:33 AM »
Alwion wrote:
> Since the pie shape no longer confirms CS vs US, except the 90 degree being US,
> does the number of ticks before #1 also not confirm a CS fuse, if its a US with the smaller wedge shape?

  The number of ticks (raised lines) BEFORE the number 1 ALWAYS confirms whether the fuze is CS-made, or is US-made.

  If CS-made, there are two ticks/hashmarks/raised-lines before the number 1.  If there isn't two lines before the number 1, the fuze is US-made.

Regards,
Pete

Is this still a valid ID for a us/cs fuse identification?

alwion

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Re: Bormann Fuze 90 Degree "Pie Slice"
« Reply #49 on: February 14, 2015, 07:47:47 AM »
I was looking for something else and coincidentally ran across this humorous snippit from the Richmond Dispatch:

Borman fuse.
 --This new military contrivance, for exploding shells at given times, is now being manufactured in great quantities, at the Virginia Armory, for use in case of emergency. They are made of a substance a trifle harder than lead, and when used are screwed on the shell. The concussion, when powder in the piece is fired, causes the fuse to ignite, which is timed to explode the shell at the proper moment. The Borman fuse is about the size of an old fashioned dollar, is half an inch thick, is numbered from 1 to 5, on the face, and is applied somewhat on the principle of the top of a self-sealing preserve can. We heard an intimation that they were to be tried at the Armory on Saturday.

The Daily Dispatch: March 4, 1861. Richmond Dispatch. 4 pages. by Cowardin & Hammersley. Richmond.
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Best,
Carl

These last two posts are from the earlier discussions, which I added here rather than bring the threads to the front. Does anyone know what the metal composition of the fuses was? I also study some Pewter, which is a mixture . Typical composition of pewter tends to be in the range of 74 to 89 percent tin, 0 to 20 percent lead, 0 to 7.6 percent antimony, 0 to 3.5 percent copper with trace levels of zinc. Arsenic and iron may also be present as impurities.

Pewter tends to a higher lead content, but is very soft, while later britannia ware dropped most of the lead, and had a much higher  antimony content, which was safer, harder, but more brittle like pure tin and had a higher melting point

curious if these are pewter fuses, or some other alloy

Woodenhead

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Re: Bormann Fuze 90 Degree "Pie Slice"
« Reply #50 on: February 14, 2015, 10:26:56 AM »
Here is the document that made me think the Bormanns consist of equal parts of lead and tin. It was apparently copied from the Watervliet Arsenal files, dated January 1854, and I found it in Tredegar's Contract Book. To make 1,000 Bormann fuzes required 125 pounds of lead and 125 pounds of tin. Maybe they changed the composition by 1861 but I've never read anything to that effect. I thought the Ordnance Manual backed up this lead/tin mixture but haven't seen it lately.
WH

Woodenhead

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Re: Bormann Fuze 90 Degree "Pie Slice"
« Reply #51 on: February 14, 2015, 10:29:15 AM »
Sorry, I forgot to attach this original document.

John D. Bartleson Jr.

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Re: Bormann Fuze 90 Degree "Pie Slice"
« Reply #52 on: February 14, 2015, 12:04:56 PM »
alwion,
   Sorry I am a little late on your question about bottom views of Bormann.  I borrowed one of Carl's images and captioned the parts for you.
Regards,
John
P.s. The right caption is "remains of magazine", sorry I could not use photo bucket.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2015, 12:07:02 PM by John D. Bartleson Jr. »

6lbgun

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Re: Bormann Fuze 90 Degree "Pie Slice"
« Reply #53 on: February 14, 2015, 01:00:08 PM »
alwion,
     Bormann fuze composition was 50% lead and 50% tin.  ((Gibbon's, and ordnance manuals)
Dan

alwion

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Re: Bormann Fuze 90 Degree "Pie Slice"
« Reply #54 on: February 14, 2015, 02:13:38 PM »
thanks guys. by that mix, it is actually its own compound, not really pewter, but even back then they knew eating lead was bad, but wouldn't have mattered much for a fuse. Only thing I see is that compound would have been REALLY soft, surprised they didn't ruin half screwing them in.

Thanks for the breakdown on the fuse John, helps alot. looking at the link's and the group of fuse backs, not all showed the " horse shoe", which looks part of the mold. al least one looks like a full circle. does that have any significance?

John D. Bartleson Jr.

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Re: Bormann Fuze 90 Degree "Pie Slice"
« Reply #55 on: February 14, 2015, 02:16:34 PM »
Post the image with a full circle horseshoe, I have not seen one.
John

Woodenhead

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Re: Bormann Fuze 90 Degree "Pie Slice"
« Reply #56 on: February 14, 2015, 10:40:53 PM »
Were all of the Bormanns' powder chambers sealed with metal horse shoes? I saw where Samson & Pae billed the Bureau for making a die to punch out "horse shoes" for the fuzes. Another bill listed 100 Bormann fuzes plus 100 horse shoes plus and extra 20 horse shoes. Is this well known to have been an integral part of all Bormanns or only used periodically?
WH

alwion

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Re: Bormann Fuze 90 Degree "Pie Slice"
« Reply #57 on: February 15, 2015, 10:01:15 AM »
http://bulletandshell.com/forum/index.php?topic=650

John in this previous thread are a few in the 9 fuse picture which I can't see the "horseshoe" . specifically the ctr fuse, and lower right. they look like full circle. the lower left looks like a pristine horseshoe, and it looks like the horseshoe area is cast a little lower than the base. maybe the horseshoe is not always visible on the bottom until it burns and discolors or distorts. Thats why I asked if all were horseshoes, or if some were full circle

John D. Bartleson Jr.

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Re: Bormann Fuze 90 Degree "Pie Slice"
« Reply #58 on: February 15, 2015, 10:01:32 AM »
WH,
   During the assembly instructions, stated in an earlier post, the mealed powder is mechanically driven in order to produce the desired overall time then mechanically the horseshoe is pressed in the circular groove of powder by a press. I don't believe the magazine is loose powder but also pressed in and closed with the tin disk which is also criimped and sealed into position.
Regards,
John
alwion,
     I can't see them clearly due to my low vision.
Pete,
    Would you email me the full size image of that group of 9 fuses? Thank you.
« Last Edit: February 15, 2015, 01:23:57 PM by John D. Bartleson Jr. »

alwion

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Re: Bormann Fuze 90 Degree "Pie Slice"
« Reply #59 on: February 15, 2015, 07:38:23 PM »
sent you the pic john. when I enlarged it, I "think" I can see the horseshoe on the two I could not before, but is VERY faint, so maybe they were all the same and the seating of the horseshoe wasn't always perfect,maybe thats why they needed extras