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Author Topic: Bormann Fuze 90 Degree "Pie Slice"  (Read 23554 times)

6lbgun

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Re: Bormann Fuze 90 Degree "Pie Slice"
« Reply #30 on: February 08, 2015, 05:46:34 PM »
Good afternoon Gentlemen, Great topic,
     Here are some observation on the Bormann.
    Pictured below are some pics of a cut case shot.  It too has a rebate and a 90 degree pie slice.  Federal fuze?  CS fuze?
Can we be sure?  I think we have to remember that the south was producing Bormanns not only at Tredegar.  Was what we call the "high lip" the standard design or the type made by a certain laboratory? Virginia purchased  the press, forms, dies etc for producing the Bormann from the Washington Arsenal in late 1860.  The form of this fuze would be a standard type not a high lip. The only difference between the high lip and the standard Bormann is the absence of a couple of threads.  There is no difference in the thickness.  The absence of the top threads does not prevent the fuze front being screwed until it bottoms out no mater what the depth of the fuze well.
     Woodenhead:  I feel what you are seeing on the parrot shells is not a build up but the lifting of the center of the fuse due gas from the deterioration of the powder charge.  Adding material to cast fuze body of the fuze would be difficult with the technology of the time.  I can't recall the particular name of the gas, Pete would know.  The pic of the cut 6lb illustrates this quit well.  I have added three more pic of a fuze that has been distorted by gas pressure.
     Post more Bormann stuff later.  Hungry, gotta eat.
God Bless
Da
     

6lbgun

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Re: Bormann Fuze 90 Degree "Pie Slice"
« Reply #31 on: February 08, 2015, 05:47:35 PM »
More Pics
Dan

callicles

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Re: Bormann Fuze 90 Degree "Pie Slice"
« Reply #32 on: February 08, 2015, 11:11:04 PM »
Great photos, 6lbgun.  In regards to the 90-degree wedge fuze shown in your first group of pictures:

Not to put words in Pete George's mouth, but I believe he was the first to determine an alternative method by which to aid people in
discerning Yankee made fuzes from CS made (and I pray I'm not about to butcher his theory). The Yankee made Bormann
fuze had a high percentage of zinc, whereas the CS ones contained more lead and less zinc.  What this means is that Yankee Bormanns
(because of the high levels of zinc), when in contact with iron over time, tend to corrode very badly -- or if not that, at least corrrodes at a
sharper or higher rate than CS fuses.  This often means that US Bormanns are in such bad condition that the numbers and hash marks
are barely visible and often the fuze itself is nearly crumbling apart. So this is one indicator of identifying a US fuze. When I saw the picture
you posted, I thought that it was a good candidate for Pete's school of thought.  Conversely,  because CS fuzes contain less zinc, they
are often found in very good condition as compared to US fuzes found in the same soil environment. I only assume that this finding is still
considered valid by Pete. Nonetheless, if the corroded Bormann fuze that is being held in the hand by someone in your first group photo is the same fuze
in the sectioned shell photo in the same group, it would POSSIBLY support the "Yankee Bormann fuze in a CS manufactured shell" idea. But, again,
as has been stated here, this thing is a puzzle that's has yet to be put together. But the ideas and facts put forth here have been very
informative and thought provoking!

6lbgun

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Re: Bormann Fuze 90 Degree "Pie Slice"
« Reply #33 on: February 09, 2015, 06:40:52 PM »
Callicles,
     Yes it is the same fuze. The fuze in the last three pics that is pushed and some what corroded is a CS high lip with CS timing hashes.
Dan

Woodenhead

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Re: Bormann Fuze 90 Degree "Pie Slice"
« Reply #34 on: February 12, 2015, 11:45:06 AM »
Callicles, did the Confederates, or the North for that matter, ever use zinc in the manufacture of their Bormann fuzes? Where is the proof? And all this talk of more or less zinc. Me thinks this is a modern day analysis of what they might have, or should have done. The pre-war U.S. regulations for making their Bormann fuzes was 50% lead and 50% tin. This was included in a highly detailed one page copy of the specs used by the Allegheny Arsenal to make Bormanns. I found it misplaced in Tredegar's Contract Book. It looks like some of the information gathered in late 1860 when Burton, J. R. Anderson and other Southern agents were allowed access to the U.S. Arsenals and Armories. I copied it and will post it as soon as I locate it. In all the discussions about the Bormann fuzes in the Confederates' correspondence, I have never come across any mention of zinc being used or even the idea that the material they were made of was responsible for their failure.

To 6lbgun, thanks for posting those fuze photos. Your point is valid. Nonetheless, if you look closely at the Bormann in the 10 pdr Parrott I posted previously, you will note the rise is a perfect bevel all the way around, and the top is flat. It looks very intentional without any of the irregularities one would expect from a pressure rise. Also, I am posting a second built-up Bormann in the nose of another 10 pounder I believe was made during the same period (i.e, spring 1861) by Tredegar as part of their order from Virginia for 5,000 - 10 pounder Parrotts. None of these CS Parrots had lathe dimples and they don't appear to have been turned on a lathe by any other method. Evidently, this was when most of the Bormann-fuzed Parrotts were made. The CS Ord. Bureau took possession of the shells (are they all case?) during July 1861. Afterwards, the monthly production records of Tredegar only reported an additional 100 produced for the CS Army. (They made a lot of 3 inch Parrotts with Bormanns for the Navy during the first half of 1862.) I suppose the Army realized that a fuze with a maximum range of one mile had no place in such long-range projectiles.

I don't mean to bore anybody but the following is documentation for the fact that Tredegar purchased thousands of Bormann fuzes in the North, and they could not understand why most were burning through the top.
In a Feb. 15, 1861, letter to Gen. Van Dorn, Army of Mississippi, Tredegar offered to provide shells with the cheaper old wooden plugs, adding "but perhaps you are aware that, by present Army regulations, the Bormann fuze is used in all field ammunition."
Unfortunately, the only source of Bormann fuzes available to Tredegar was through their Northern friend and partner in the sale of Virginia's old flintlock muskets, Cooper & Pond of New York City. Complaints soon came to Tredegar from recipients of their ammo like Col. Manigault, Ordnance Chief in Charleston, SC. On March 22, 1861, the Ironworks responded: "We are sorry that any of the fuzes shipped you are objectionable, but as we wrote you heretofore, we had to get them made outside of our shops & consequently could not pay that attention to their..." quality as they would like to have done.
It becomes clear that Tredegar's current supply of Bormann fuzes were "objectionable" when Robert Archer writes his old Army friend, Maj. Geo. Ramsey stationed at the Washington Arsenal on April 1, 1861. If you don't mind, I'll include this revealing letter in its entirety.

My Dear Major,
      Excuse me for bothering you, but I won't detain you long.
      Mr. Smith formerly under your command, and now at our Armory here, tells me that the Bormann Fuze is now perforated through the thin plate below the magazine so as to insure the ignition of the charge in the shell & that they are now made so in the Navy, with the plate so perforated. Is this so, and are they perforated at the Arsenals? One thing is certain. I saw several tried, that were made in New York and not perforated, and not one gave way at the bottom, but burst through the upper plate. Please enlighten me - what size hole do you drill through the iron or brass plug upon which the Fuze is secured?


The following day, Dr. Archer (signed "J. R. Anderson & Co.") penned an angry note to Cooper & Pond.
     
      Gentlemen: The Bormann Fuzes you sent us are entirely worthless. They appear to be improperly made, as the metal covering to the magazine, which is intended to be blown off by the explosion, is made of ordinary plate tin instead of some thin soft metal - the consequence is that in several we have tried, not one exploded at the bottom, or burnt this thin plate, but all immediately exploded through the top, which seems to be the weakest part of the Fuze.
      It will be well for you to get an explanation of this matter from the manufacturer & we will thank you to communicate to us what he says.


As Ft. Sumter was fired on days later, we can safely assume that no response to Archer's inquiry was had. Tredegar was clearly in the process of setting up their own production line whose output was soon apparent by the thousands of Bormanns they began distributing on May 1st according to their Sales Book and vouchers. This was the period when the 10 pounders were being manufactured with Bormanns in the nose. It appears that the first of these regularly burned through the top, as Archer complained, and the later ones had extra material piled on top as seen in the two examples I have presented photos of to the Forum. Obviously, Richmond's ordnance establishment did not know the proper way to fashion a reliable Bormann fuze at that time. I think the dramatic build-up was done out of desperation and for a brief period. They soon made new molds producing thicker fuzes with flat tops.

I realize the above information brings up additional points worthy of discussion, so please keep it coming.

Regards, WH

 


CarlS

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Re: Bormann Fuze 90 Degree "Pie Slice"
« Reply #35 on: February 12, 2015, 01:07:30 PM »
Great info WoodenHead.  Thanks for sharing.

Also to join the information from prior discussions on the Bormann fuse for convenience, please see:
    http://bulletandshell.com/forum/index.php?topic=628
    http://bulletandshell.com/forum/index.php?topic=650
Some good discussion and images on those two threads concerning the Bormann fuse. 
Best,
Carl

John D. Bartleson Jr.

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Re: Bormann Fuze 90 Degree "Pie Slice"
« Reply #36 on: February 12, 2015, 03:13:15 PM »
AMEN Carl, we have really beat the Bormann to death Now I believe I am starting to repeat myself. WH, I think the use of zinc is a mis-nomer, further the two letters posted y WH really explains why some fuses blew out at top cente and not due to being too thin.  Another factor not yet mentiond is if the person mixing the lead and tin used a higher % of lead would soften and weaken the fuse. Addthis to an iron disk instead of the required tin and or it not being punhed prior to assembly with the shell all add up to a dud.
John
« Last Edit: February 12, 2015, 03:51:46 PM by John D. Bartleson Jr. »

CarlS

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Re: Bormann Fuze 90 Degree "Pie Slice"
« Reply #37 on: February 12, 2015, 03:34:50 PM »
I wasn't meaning it was beat to death by any means.  The other links that I posted covered the tin/brass patch under the fuse as well as some markings, etc. so for people reading this thread that hadn't seen the prior ones I wanted to provide links to those related discussions.  This discussion on the thickness of the top and the blow through is different and Woodenhead's letters are a great contribution.
Best,
Carl

Woodenhead

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Re: Bormann Fuze 90 Degree "Pie Slice"
« Reply #38 on: February 12, 2015, 04:40:17 PM »
Thanks for the links to the threads, Carl. That was a lot of very good information. I see now that they had problems with the little discs on the underside. Alas, I've got no more to say about burning thru the top.
WH

6lbgun

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Re: Bormann Fuze 90 Degree "Pie Slice"
« Reply #39 on: February 12, 2015, 05:21:51 PM »
Gentlemen,
     Carl, thank you for posting the older threads concerning the Bormann.  These threads are from 2 1/2 years ago and many newer members have not seen them.  They also refresh the old memory of those of us who have seen them.  They are a great asset when a subject is revisited after such a long time.
     I feel that no subject is ever "beaten to death" on our forum.  New information is discovered,  theories on the unknown
are discussed, all contributing to our growth of knowledge.  That is why we are a part of this forum, our thirst for knowledge.
This especially true concerning CS ordnance.  Records are sparse or nonexistent.  Only by discussion, observation and a relentless search for period documents can we shed light on CS ordnance.  Woodenhead's observation coupled with written material is heart of this site.  You may not agree with his conclusion, but the exchange of ideas is why we are here.
     Discussion of the Bormann is not dead.  There is more to come.
With all respect,
Dan

callicles

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Re: Bormann Fuze 90 Degree "Pie Slice"
« Reply #40 on: February 12, 2015, 06:09:32 PM »
Woodenhead,

Thanks for your posts. Regarding the use of "zinc:" No, I have no documented evidence.  That information I posted is from D&G (1993 ed.) p. 440.  I simply thought
it would be of interest to others.  It seems Mr. George put a lot of years and field work into developing that theory -- thus my reason for posting it.

I appreciate all the responses, and I am glad most don't think it is a "dead issue."  My reason for posting anew, was to see if, in the past
couple years, there has been new findings or observations regarding the 90-degree wedge issue. And though it appears not much has been settled,
at least 6lbgun and Woodenhead and others have contributed greatly to this thread, and thus to history.  So I thank you guys for allowing me
(admittedly ignorant about this) to freely ask questions without being too ostrocized.  Thanks! 

John D. Bartleson Jr.

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Re: Bormann Fuze 90 Degree "Pie Slice"
« Reply #41 on: February 12, 2015, 08:15:58 PM »
To All,
     First my apology for using the term “beat to death” when I should have said “greatly expanded upon”. To Dan, I no better and get drawn up short each time.
Callicles, I should have replied to your very first question “I know nothing about the pie shape being an I.D. feature.  I suggested from the start that one should go to “search” and look up Bormann for previous posts on it.  Thanks to Carl the links will not have to be searched.
Fortunately from our remaining Federal references a host of information is there for those who seek it. There are numerous questions on previous post that have never been answered, passed by and on with a new one.
We may never know why Mr. Bormann designed the face of the Belgium Bormann fuse to appear as it does, see below.
Any way if I seemed short it’s because I was, and as Dan said on with more queries into the Bormann.   When complete, callicles will have much data for his book.
Kind Regards,
John
« Last Edit: February 12, 2015, 08:26:26 PM by John D. Bartleson Jr. »

John D. Bartleson Jr.

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Re: Bormann Fuze 90 Degree "Pie Slice"
« Reply #42 on: February 12, 2015, 08:31:05 PM »
To all,
   If one really wans to study the external features of a Federal Bormann, here is a fine speciman.
John

alwion

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Re: Bormann Fuze 90 Degree "Pie Slice"
« Reply #43 on: February 13, 2015, 11:37:10 AM »
the Belgium one is confusing or should I say "cluttered" glad the US ones are better:}

6lbgun

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Re: Bormann Fuze 90 Degree "Pie Slice"
« Reply #44 on: February 13, 2015, 11:51:11 AM »
Woodenhead
     Your quotes of the correspondence from Tredeger to the Washington Arsenal and Cooper & Pond provide the answer to the burn through of the Bormanns in question.  The simple fact that they were not aware of the necessity of perforating the sealing disk on the magazine would insure that the flame from the ignition of the musket powder in the magazine would not detonate the bursting charge.  As the fuse was screwed down tight the sealing plug would have no where to go.  The charge in the magazine had no where to go but up through the fuse, thus creating the burn through on the top.  John mentions the necessity of the holes in post #36.  I am very surprised that the folks at Tredeger did not know this.
     Gibbon's Manual, penned August 1859, mentions this necessity.  If Virginia would have purchased completed shells from the arsenal with the arsenal installed fuzes instead of using the incorrectly installed,  but good quality fuzes they had purchased from Cooper & Pond, the shells would have performed flawlessly.
    It seems that there never was a problem with thin tops or the need to build up the top of the fuze.
Perhaps they should have read the users manual.    :)
God Bless
Dan