Bullet and Shell Civil War Projectiles Forum

Author Topic: Field caliber Whitworths  (Read 30098 times)

redbob

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Re: Field caliber Whitworths
« Reply #30 on: December 22, 2013, 09:56:30 AM »
Steve:
There is a picture of two Whitworth guns at the stone wall at Gettysburg and behind them are stacks of these shells.

emike123

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Re: Field caliber Whitworths
« Reply #31 on: December 22, 2013, 10:03:25 AM »
Is this the picture because I can't see that these are shells vs. bolts?  I am not aware of any of the detachable nose Whitworths having been recovered at Gettysburg, but I know regular shells and bolts.  As shown above, I could be wrong so that doesn't mean the detachable nose ones were not but I have not known of any.

John D. Bartleson Jr.

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Re: Field caliber Whitworths
« Reply #32 on: December 22, 2013, 10:04:33 AM »
Rebob,
  Are they shells or case shot bodies.  Do they have the nose ejecting feature?
John

redbob

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Re: Field caliber Whitworths
« Reply #33 on: December 22, 2013, 10:14:07 AM »
I've never been able to get a clear enough view of them,but  according to the Park Service; when the guns were moved to their present location (at the Peace Monument) the shells/bolts(?) were placed in storage.

emike123

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Re: Field caliber Whitworths
« Reply #34 on: December 22, 2013, 10:46:46 AM »
Carl has access to some huge picture files from the NPS and maybe he can get better shots.  For now here are links to a couple bigger pictures, and I cannot see that they are shells, but its tough to be certain.

Also, worth noting that from the historical marker visible, these pictures are clearly post war so there is no guarantee, probably quite the contrary, the projectiles stacked near these guns have anything to do with the battle.  The park stacked post war projectiles and even some reproduction (see D&G page 332) Whitworth projectiles near guns for display for many years before removing them because thieves were making off with them.  In the case of some of the Hotchkisses that had been stacked near guns at Gettysburg, were later moved to a storage building and a lot were stolen -- those Hotchkiss shells are often represented as being from Gettysburg even though they were post war surplus just stacked at monuments for some time.

http://www.nps.gov/common/uploads/photogallery/ner/park/gett/F03FF8B0-155D-451F-67CD7C7EC31AC189/F03FF8B0-155D-451F-67CD7C7EC31AC189.jpg

http://www.itsallaboutfamily.com/j16/images/Places/USA/PA/Gettysburg/Battlefield-at-Gettysburg/20130660_006_West-Confederate-Avenue-showing-Whitworth-Guns_Gettysburg-PA.jpg

CarlS

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Re: Field caliber Whitworths
« Reply #35 on: December 22, 2013, 06:38:40 PM »
Well, I couldn't find a high resolution image of the Whitworth gun at Gettysburg.  I did find a  number of them with the same resolution you provided and have attached below an enlarged snip of the photograph showing only the stack of Whitworth projectiles.  I did find a very similar image from what looks to be the same time period of some Parrott rifles at Gettysburg.  The second image below is the projectiles stacked near the cannon trail of one of the Parrott guns.  I am still amazed at how good the resolution of the mid-1800's photography equipment was which is evident in this stack of shells.  Note that the stack of projectiles seem to be a badly stylized example of a Parrott projectile.  There is no evidence of the sabots; only recessed bottoms but they are obviously not Delafield shells.  It appears they are each attached by a rod to the fuse area of the projectile opposite with the security strap going over the rods to hold all the projectiles in place.  All the projectiles by the Whitworth cannon appear to me if I had to guess to be bolts but it's really quite hard to know from this image.  More importantly since I feel sure the Parrott projectiles are park cast facsimiles there is no reason to believe they didn't do the same with the Whitworth projectiles and so I think this stack is not of real ACW rounds.  Mike above also provides supporting evidence regarding the Gettysburg Whitworth projectiles.  Do we have any proof that any monument Whitworth projectiles were real war period projectiles?

Note: For those interested the entire image of the Parrotts in various resolutions can be found here:
               http://www.loc.gov/pictures/item/det1994009285/PP/
« Last Edit: December 22, 2013, 06:43:25 PM by CarlS »
Best,
Carl

John D. Bartleson Jr.

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Re: Field caliber Whitworths
« Reply #36 on: December 22, 2013, 07:49:34 PM »
Thanks Carl, but we are starting to stray.
John ::)

CarlS

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Re: Field caliber Whitworths
« Reply #37 on: December 22, 2013, 11:46:34 PM »
Stray from what?  The original topic was "Field caliber Whitworths" and it morphed into "Are deteachable nose whitworths an ACW shell?" and some of the evidence discussed was the Gettysburg Whitworths. .
« Last Edit: December 22, 2013, 11:56:51 PM by CarlS »
Best,
Carl

Pete George

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Re: Field caliber Whitworths
« Reply #38 on: December 23, 2013, 03:07:54 AM »
  Yes, the Gettysburg NPS had 12-pdr. Whitworth Bolt reproductions made.  Thay are shown on page 332 of the D&G-1993 book.  As the book says on that page, a retired Gettysburg ranger told me about them.

  The projectiles in the second photo are brass-saboted Absterdam Type 3 shells.

  It's 3:06AM here at the moment. Got to get some rest. I'll have more to say about the detachable-nose Whitworth Case-Shot shells tomorrow.

Regards,
Pete

CarlS

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Re: Field caliber Whitworths
« Reply #39 on: December 23, 2013, 03:32:02 AM »
What's this need for sleep?  It just wastes time we could be productive!   ;D

I look forward to your reply.
Best,
Carl

scottfromgeorgia

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Re: Field caliber Whitworths
« Reply #40 on: December 23, 2013, 07:31:31 AM »
Pete is resting? Must be the holidays!

John D. Bartleson Jr.

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Re: Field caliber Whitworths
« Reply #41 on: December 23, 2013, 08:59:52 AM »
Carl,
     A concise overview of this topic, thank you.  Mike’s image and Pete’s comment prompted a little over 100 visits to this topic
     You asked “stray from what?” and I say the central images and verbal quotes from Mr. Nathan Henry from the Underwater Archeology Department at Fort Fisher that brought to this topic over 235 additional visits.  Mr. Henry’s evidence placed the nose ejecting Whitworth case shot inside the sunken blockade runner “Modern Greece”.  This discovery and salvage really established the Underwater Archeology Department of Fort Fisher and the rightful place of the Whitworth case shot in ACW history.
    The sad part of this topic is that some will still reject the evidence.
Kind Regards,
John
Below are two more and different images of the case shot which I found on the Internet.
« Last Edit: December 23, 2013, 09:07:06 AM by John D. Bartleson Jr. »

emike123

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Re: Field caliber Whitworths
« Reply #42 on: December 23, 2013, 09:41:31 AM »
Having started this thread to get some conversation going and not knowing then where that discussion would lead (and in fact learning from some of it), I personally don’t think we are straying, merely meandering through some of the many interesting facets brought out by this thread.   

Experimental projectiles from places like Milledgeville or the West Point range, unfinished,  apparently not distributed types found only at arsenal dump sites, and ones on that have only been found on ships like the Brittens off the Georgiana prove these things to have been part of the larger context of the American Civil War, but as RedBob wrote, it is a collectors own feelings that determine whether one thinks of these in the same way as that individual regards battlefield recovered specimens.  I know for a lot of folks, shells not having been actually used in combat fired at the enemy is an asterisk (& some collectors of their own prerogative may even go so far as to not want to collect them as a result – aka Carl’s politics reference and lets please not go there as Scott is a skilled debater who will happily take on all comers in that area).  My personal choice is that I have in my collection a number of projectiles, and some fuses, from all the places listed above and I still think they are cool even if in my mind of minds the ones with verifiable battlefield usage have a little more interesting history to me.

I never knew these detached nose Whitworths made it even to our shores as early as 1862.  It would seem logical that in the ensuing 3 years some like them were used in battle, but I am not aware of them.  I don’t think the Gettysburg projectiles stacks are good proof of that.  Speaking only personally but to me it would be be very, and even more interesting, to confirm some actually got fired in battle here.  Still, as I mentioned for me their presence in a blockade runner alone elevates them historically for what I am interested in from the vast amount of Whitworth projectiles that are out across the globe or were imported after by places like Bannermans that never were even considered for use here during the ACW or after even.  For me, as a personal choice, that is where I generally draw the line.  BUT as you can see, I made an exception with the Baby Whitworth because it too is neat in its own right and I had seen war dated Baby Whitworth cannon out in my South American travels.  So, in sum, I guess there are no firm rules, only individual collector preference.

redbob

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Re: Field caliber Whitworths
« Reply #43 on: December 23, 2013, 09:47:39 AM »
Now, this is how I think an administrator/moderator should sound; good job.
« Last Edit: December 23, 2013, 09:57:30 AM by redbob »

John D. Bartleson Jr.

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Re: Field caliber Whitworths
« Reply #44 on: December 23, 2013, 11:02:38 AM »
Well said Mike. So what is your opinion of the Whitworth case shot now?
If you would like to read the Department's report it can be read at:
http://www.archaeology.ncdcr.gov/ncarch/UAB/pdf%20Files/Modern%20Greece%20Report.pdf
Kind Regards,
John
   After thought:
    If we are to use individual collectors ideas on this subject , then we lose a standard for identification, projectile systems and shell/Fuze functioning.
« Last Edit: December 23, 2013, 11:10:08 AM by John D. Bartleson Jr. »