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Author Topic: Field caliber Whitworths  (Read 29717 times)

emike123

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Field caliber Whitworths
« on: December 18, 2013, 09:37:24 PM »
A few 12pdr and under of this popular projectile

redbob

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Re: Field caliber Whitworths
« Reply #1 on: December 19, 2013, 08:30:08 AM »
Do you consider the detachable nose 12 pound Whitworth shells a legitimate Civil War projectile?

emike123

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Re: Field caliber Whitworths
« Reply #2 on: December 19, 2013, 08:46:44 AM »
No, which is why I don't have one

Pete George

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Re: Field caliber Whitworths
« Reply #3 on: December 19, 2013, 02:54:05 PM »
Redbob, no proof has surfaced that even a single "Detachable-nose" 12-pdr. Whitworth has ever been excavated in the US. Therefore, although some MIGHT have been manufactured in Britain before the end of the civil war, it seems none got used here during the war. That puts the detachable-nose Whitworth in the category of other "interesting" European artillery projectiles that didn't get across the Atlantic Ocean until after the war ended. They've turned up in non-excavated condition here because the armaments-dealer Francis Bannerman & Company (of New York) seems to have imported a lot of them when Britain's Ordnance Department declared them obsolete and sold them to armaments-dealers as military surplus. So, "knowledgeable" civil war artillery collectors (like Emike) have little to no interest in owning one.

  I should mention, for anybody who doesn't already know... some of them have showed up on the collectors' market in somewhat-pitted condition because they sat out in the weather for decades around Bannerman's Island Arsenal warehouse -- but those are not battlefield-excavated ones.

Regards,
Pete

redbob

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Re: Field caliber Whitworths
« Reply #4 on: December 19, 2013, 04:16:38 PM »
Thanks for the information, there is also a picture of two Whitworth guns at Gettysburg with stacks of these shells next to them.

John D. Bartleson Jr.

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Re: Field caliber Whitworths
« Reply #5 on: December 19, 2013, 07:26:11 PM »
Rebob and All,
   If you are wondering what this shell looks like inside, the below drawing was made from an actual projectile in Jack Wells collection. I believe his specimen was a purchase.
Regards,
John


Jack Wells

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Re: Field caliber Whitworths
« Reply #6 on: December 20, 2013, 08:42:16 AM »
Some of these (12) Pdr,were recovered from the sunken Blockadw runner "Modern Greece" and are on displayn at Ft. Fisher. I'm sure I found a detachable Ogive back in 1949 or 1950.
Remember never say "Never? it will end up bighting you in the butt.Also there was a 6 Gun Btry. shipped from  the UK to the USA with machinery for producinf Shoe<Shell,and Case Shor

Charles. J. Wells (Jack)
Sgt. Maj. USA. Ret.
Charles.J.Wells (Jack)
SGM. U.S.A. Ret.

John D. Bartleson Jr.

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Re: Field caliber Whitworths
« Reply #7 on: December 20, 2013, 08:56:35 AM »
Thank you Jack.  It is good to see you back on the Forum after your serious operation.
All the Best,
John

John D. Bartleson Jr.

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Re: Field caliber Whitworths
« Reply #8 on: December 20, 2013, 10:58:09 AM »
To All Interested,
   Taking Jack Wels tip about one of these being at Fort Fisher I emailed a copy of my drawing to Mr. Nathan Henry and below is his reply and photo:
 
  " Hi John, Sure enough, the separation line is blatantly evident on the 12-pdr. we have in our showcase (see photo). I couldn’t see it on the one in wet storage but it is a bit more corroded. Electrolysis could make it evident. Thanks for bringing that attribute to my attention.

Nathan Henry
Assistant State Archaeologist and Conservator
Underwater Archaeology Branch
NC Office of State Archaeology
1528 Fort Fisher Blvd. South
Kure Beach, NC 28449
Phone: 910 458 9042

   

emike123

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Re: Field caliber Whitworths
« Reply #9 on: December 20, 2013, 11:11:29 AM »
Interesting and welcome back Jack.  More interesting that one may have actually been used here vs. "almost made it."  Rack that brain of yours and tell us where you think you found the nose part.

The 6pdr at Fort Fisher is well documented.  The 6pdr in my picture above is from there.

I am surprised nobody zinged me on the baby (3pdr) Whitworth shell because I don't think they were used here either.  That one in my picture above came from the UK thanks to Bart's sleuthing.

Whitworths were used all over the globe because they were high quality.  I saw several big ones in Chile at the Naval Museum in Valparaiso and others have come out of Europe.  I saw a 3pdr Whitworth gun in both Argentina and Chile and one had an 1863 date on the trunion.

John D. Bartleson Jr.

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Re: Field caliber Whitworths
« Reply #10 on: December 20, 2013, 02:13:18 PM »
Mike,
  There was one box  (10) Whitworth case shot and 75 Whitworth bolts recovered when the Modern Greece was salvaged.  It is not known how many were salvaged by the C.S. after it sank.  It is unlikely they would have only sent one box of  of the case shot.  Below are records kept by a recorder as the ship was salvaged, artillery ordnance only. 
Regards,
John





« Last Edit: December 20, 2013, 02:27:21 PM by John D. Bartleson Jr. »

John D. Bartleson Jr.

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Re: Field caliber Whitworths
« Reply #11 on: December 20, 2013, 07:52:08 PM »
Mike, Pete and All Interested,
    I asked Mr. Henry about the C.S. salvage, his reply was:
 "The Confederate goal was just to get as much stuff off the wreck as they could. Since it was stranded under the guns of Fort Fisher they were able to do this although they obviously didn't get everything. The big coup was the salvage of four 12-pdr. Whitworth Rifles. Two initially stayed at Fort Fisher. One was captured on the beach along with a Blakely rifled field piece while protecting another stranded blockade runner and they went to the navy prize yard, I think in 1864. Until then they served the Confederacy very well.

It seems like two of the 12-pdr. Whitworth rifles were used by DH Hill during the 1863 siege of Washington, NC which was at that point held by Union forces. I would have expected them to be using shells during the bombardment.

Anyway, I always assumed that much of the 12-pounder ammunition used was salvaged from the Modern Greece. Only 75 solid shot and 10 of the shell/case shot were recovered from the wreck in 1963. Ten of those solid shot are in the box that is in wet storage--it is obvious they are shot because the noses of the projectiles are exposed by the broken lid.

I just pulled the nose-ejecting case shot from our display. I hope to get it x-rayed up at our Queen Anne's Revenge lab at the beginning of next year.

Nathan Henry
Assistant State Archaeologist and Conservator Underwater Archaeology Branch NC Office of State Archaeology
1528 Fort Fisher Blvd. South
Kure Beach, NC 28449
Phone: 910 458 9042"

Regards,
John
Note:  The Whitworth and Blakely projectiles were never adopted by the British Ordnance Department of the Crown and could not have been  declared obsolete by it.  They were the property of Whitworth and Blakely and when our ACW ended so ended the need for them.
« Last Edit: December 20, 2013, 08:04:21 PM by John D. Bartleson Jr. »

redbob

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Re: Field caliber Whitworths
« Reply #12 on: December 21, 2013, 08:51:06 AM »
Gentlemen:

Thank you for taking the time and effort to answer my question about the Whitworth shells, your answers have been most helpful and informative. I think that I will keep them in my collection and be pleased to have them.

pipedreamer65

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Re: Field caliber Whitworths
« Reply #13 on: December 21, 2013, 10:58:41 AM »
Recreational divers hit the Modern Greece as well.  I've seen various non artillery items over the years and have some in my collection.  No telling what they got, though i've seen whitworth bolts from time to time.  Most were never treated properly and are bondo babies.  The plates for the Modern Greece whitworths recovered by the State have been in that book for 40 years.  Surprised about the question and answer on the case shot.


pipedreamer65

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Re: Field caliber Whitworths
« Reply #14 on: December 21, 2013, 11:02:46 AM »
Good work Bart by contacting Mr. Henry.  I don't him personally, but he is the goto person on stuff like this. 

And, excellent memory Jack!
« Last Edit: December 21, 2013, 12:39:38 PM by pipedreamer65 »