Trans-Mississippi bullets

[R. J. in LA]

When Terry posted his extremely rare Trans-Mississippi bullet finds the other day it got my mouth watering so I decided to post the rare Trans-Mississippi bullets I've been fortunate to have excavated in south, central and north Louisiana over the last few years.  Some are in excellent dug condition and some are not is such good condition since some came from plowed agricultural fields.  I will, however, definitely take them like they are any day.

The first row: "Tom Green" bullets noted in Dean Thomas' latest bullet book as bullets from moulds and machine(s) made by Dance & Park gun makers at their Anderson, TX laboratory.

The second row: "Arkansas Hawg" bullets noted in Dean Thomas' latest book as bullets made in Little Rock, AR and Tyler, TX.

The third row: "Baby Hawg" bullets.  Does anyone have any definitive info. on whom & where were these made?

The fourth row: "Mississippi Rifle" bullets noted in Tom Stelma's bullet CD as Marshall, TX 2-groove Enfield bullet.

Excellent forum.  Happy Easter to everyone!


R. J.

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[coonboy]

R.J. :  Great minies and they sure bring back a lot of good memories. Yes, I can still remember when I "walked in the sunshine" also.    coonboy

[ETEX]

RJ

Great bullets and it doesn't matter if a Trans-Mississippi Bullet (hawg, baby hawg, Tom Green, Hindman, MTE, etc, etc is in poor, good, or choice conditions because they are all great for a collection. Thanks for sharing your finds. I posted a thought process earlier the  Arkansas Hawg - 69 Caliber, MM-375 - 58 Caliber, and the Baby Hawg - 54 Caliber are the same bullet in the different calibers or a family and produced in the Trans-Mississippi. The profiles and general appearance are very similar with the Hawg and Baby Hawg found in Arkansas and Louisiana and the MM-375 found into the Eastern Theatre. I previously posted the 69/70 caliber TS 09-063 and TS 09-064 (found mainly in Corinth/Shiloh, the elusive MM-452 (58 Caliber) is the TS 06-062 (found in Arkansas (Cove Creek Minie) and Corinth (Stan)(Texas Troops Bullet), and the MM-453 54 Caliber Sharpshooter found in different theatres are one bullet in the different calibers. The similarities with the MM-452, 453, and the 69/70 caliber version are remarkable to me. I am no scholar or expert but the two sets of bullets mentioned above are Trans-Mississippi produced with the MM-453 and the MM-375 being carried into Eastern Theatre and the others remaining in the Trans-Mississippi.

RJ with all that said I believe the Baby Hawg came out of Tyler and Little Rock Arsenals but have no proof to back this up. I would like to here everyone's thoughts on the MM-375 belonging in the family of the Hawg and Baby Hawg either agreeing or disagreeing and providing comments.

Michael

[R. J. in LA]

Terry, thanks and I'm glad you enjoyed the bullets in the photo.  I'd say the "sunshine shown very brightly on you when you walked in the sunshine"!  Your Trans-Mississippi searches along with your the other areas you hunted resulted in legendary finds, well done my friend!

R. J.

[R. J. in LA]

Michael, thanks for the compliments on the bullets.  When I look at the TT-170, the counterpart to the MM-375, that TT-170 looks like the .58 cal. bigger brother to the "Baby Hawg" so you may be on to something.  Thanks for posting.

R. J.

[emike123]

But the MM375s are predominantly recovered in the East, aren't they?  I have a couple including a Mac Mason one with his penmanship stating its from Gaines Mills.

[ETEX]

Mike,
  That is what has peaked my curiosity. If I am not wrong I believe there has been a bundle of MM-453's found in the Eastern Theatre also. A possible thought, they went East with Texas and Louisiana troops. It would take some research to associate the MM-375 to certain troops as with the MM-453. The MM-375's I have came from Charleston, SC and Richmond, VA. Go figure.

Michael

[Skip]

Hey R.J. and All,

Nice bullets, R.J. I wish that some of those Texas boys had brought some of those Tom Greens up here to Arkansas.

Etex, while it does sound plausible that the TM Dept. shipped some ammunition across the River due to the large amount of men and horses sent east the O.R.'s tell us that when it comes to arms and ammuntion (and money) we had to be on the recieving end - not the giving one. When Vicksburg and Port Hudson fell in 1863, we were cut off from the rest of the Confederacy and while men, arms and money could be smuggled across the Mississippi in limited amounts, the Dept. was left to its own devices to survive.

One posative aspect was that the blockade was not a factor when it came to south Texas. Goods could be shipped to the Rio Grande, landed at Bagdad on the Mexican side of the river and then crossed over into Texas. Union ships
would not interfere fearing bringing France into the War.

In March of 1862 after the Battle of Pea Ridge Maj. Gen. Earl Van Dorn stripped Arkansas of all troops and military supplies to join Albert Sydney Johnston at Shiloh. The governor and citizens petitioned Richmond for troops and supplies
to defend the state so Thomas Hindman was shipped west to remedy the situation. Hindman established an arsenal and salt works at Arkadelphia, began enforcing the consription laws and halting all Texas troops passing through the state going east.

Hindman put together five divisions. He had planned to defeat two federal armies in southwest Missouri under Blount and Herron that summer and then winter two divisions in Missouri. Unfortunately the Yankees had taken the Mississippi all the way down to Vicksburg and in the process had captured alot of equipment being smuggled across the river to Hindman. The sad fact of the matter was that he just could not arm his men. It wasn't until December that he was able to attack the two enemy armies at Prairie Grove and even then he had to withdraw during the night for lack of ammunition.

It's interesting to note that Prairie Grove was the earliest point in the War where some of these exotic TM bullets start to show up, namely the Hindman and the Cosmopolitan Carbine Type II. Both are fairly crude as compared to the later TM exotics which were probably cast from foreign molds brought through the blockade.

[emike123]

Skip:

To your point, I was reading about pikes earlier today and saw that one of the few times troops in battle were actually armed with them was at Devall's Bluff.  Thats how bad their equipment was out your way.

Good to see you here -- hope to see you in person in August.

[ETEX]

Skip,

It's good seeing you on the forum. I am posting a photo of the Baby Hawg and the Hawg for everyone to be able to look at the profiles and the similarities. Mike posted a MM-375 so I didn't photograph one to add with these pics. Skip, with the close resemblance of the bullets I wanted to throw out the question and get everyone's input.

Michael

[Skip]

Hi Michael,

Both bullets are of the Mangeot pattern with the Baby Hawg having deeper more distinct grooves but I have no idea if they are related similair to say Carcanos. Both were cast from well constructed molds which were probably foreign in origin and brought in through Mexico.

All of the .69 caliber ones have been found on cavalry camps and may have been fired in musketoons but the few .54's we've found have come from infantry camps. Terry and R.J. have found more of the smaller caliber bullets and can most likely give you better information than I can.

Mike,

Edwards reported that in early 1865 Shelby's cavalry was armed with the short enfields except Slayback's regiment who were armed with pikes. Ouch!

[ETEX]

Terry and RJ,

After hearing from Skip it would be nice to know if yall have dug the Baby Hawg in Infantry or Cavalry camps or from both. The only providence I have on the one in my collection is it was dug in Louisiana. Wish I knew more on the whereabouts but was verbally told the Red River Campaign.

Michael

[coonboy]

Mike:  My mother and I both dug ours in the lines of Churchills Arkansas  and Missouri Inf.  troops where they were trying to flank the Union troops at the onset of the Battle of Pleasant Hill April 9, 1864.In fact we did not ever know what they were when we first pictured them in articles in the 1973-74 Civil War  magazines. That was when many of the super rare minies begin to surface due to the ability of  ground balance detectors reading into the terrible iron ore soil on the battlefield.     Coonboy

[R. J. in LA]

Terry, Michael & Skip,

Here is the info. I know.

I found one of the "Baby Hawg" bullets in south Louisiana which had both infantry & cavalry in the immediate area: 4th, 5th, & 7th TX cavlary under Sibley's command; Waller's 13th TX cavalry; 2nd LA cavalry; 10th, 12th, 18th, 24th & 28th LA infantry plus some LA & TX artillery units.  These units occupied the area in 1863.

I found one of the other "Baby Hawg" bullets in central Louisiana which had both infantry & cavalry in the immediate area: same units as above plus Walker's TX Division & Green's second brigade.  These units occupied the area in 1864.  At this site I also found .39 & .44 caliber Tranter bullets & an assortment of round balls, minies, Enfields, & MTE bullets.  Another relic hunter found 2 Mini-Delvigne bullets at this same site.

I found one of the other "Baby Hawg" bullets in central Louisiana about 20 miles from the site described above & the same units were around this area in 1864.



R. J.