Bullet and Shell Civil War Projectiles Forum
Relic Discussion => Artillery => Topic started by: Dave the plumber on April 23, 2013, 08:22:34 PM
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Nuttin' going on here in awhile........... Does someone have an old artillery photo they can post for us all to speculate on ?? The last ones posted have been a lot of fun, and brought about an active lively discussion
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Best I can do for boredom.
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Funny, :o
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Here's a photo. Does anyone know anything about it?
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Thinking that it maybe 42pdr smoothbore siege guns. Check out the stands of grape. That is a good picture.
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I always wondered why they attached a wood sabot to a stand of grape. Any thoughts ??
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It appears the soldier standing behind the stands of grape is missing an arm. I think that might be his doctor to the right judging by the look of his sword. I think that's a U.S. model 1840 medical staff officers sword.
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to make it more rigid, otherwise all that crap would start to come apart in the barrel and lose energy and range
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I love these old photos.
I would guess a 32-lber smoothbore.
And I aslo understood the wood was to keep the bottom plate from shattering in the barrell so it could still push the other pieces forward. If it shatters then there is too much space for the propelling gases to get past the balls, rings and plates thus reducing their range.
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if you notice there are 11 officers in the picture. nine of them have shoulder boards while one of them has no shoulder boards but his trousers have the officers stripe and he is carrying a sword. The man with the missing arm has no shoulder boards but if you look at his trousers just above the stand of grape you can see the officers stripe.
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ok, how is the wood sabot attached ??
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In my opinion, and I could be wrong but I believe the man with the missing arm could be staged. notice the front of his hirt, there is a large bulge, could this be his arm concealed to appear like he is missing an arm.
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This looks like one of those many images taken in the fortifications around Washington. It would explain the large number of government workers....err.. officers.. standing around doing nothing. >:(
Perhaps the soldier with the missing arm has it bandaged against his body to immobilize it while it heals.
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The sabot would have to have the bolt that holds the top plate run thru it. The only other way would to have the bottom plate nailed to the sabot but I don't recall ever seeing a bottom plate with any other holes other than the bolt hole in the center.
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Super glue ;D
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From the 1841 Ordnance Manual
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Joe, I personally have a few stands of grape, and none have holes in either plate, the thru -bolt is flush on the 'bottom' plate, and the nut on the 'top' of the bolt, is flush to the 'top' plate.
I can't think of seeing any where the through bolt is longer than the complete stand, nor can I remember any with holes in the plate for mounting the wood sabot onto it..........
But, it sure looks like the sabot is fixed somehow on the ones in the picture.......
Any ideas out there ??
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A sabot would have been required for grape in guns with smaller diameter powder chambers, such as the howitzers shown here. That would mean attached sabots would have been the exception rather than the rule. But there's the photograph showing they existed, and here is the text stating how to attach them. I don't know of a 15" Zalinski Pneumatic Projectile in any museum or collection, but they are well-documented to have existed. When someone finds an attached sabot on a stand of grape, then we will know for sure! ;)
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Hello,
Here is a picture of a grapestand freshly recovered from the USS Cario clearly showing a sabot attached but no clear indication of how. I still stick (pun intended) to my super glue theory!
I'll try to find the high resolution copy of the image at the top of this thread when I get a chance and see if a closeup might give an indication of how it's attached.
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I'm sure Grant took all of the starch out of their collars when he relieved all the forts and put them in the field. No more oysters and champagne at Willard's. ;D
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I have a 32-lber grape stand off the Cairo that is in excellent condition. I looked closely at the bottom of it since it is in excellent condition to see if it showed any indication of how the wood was attached but I didn't see any sign. The bottom has a peened bolt that is flush with the plate. The other end has a plate with two holes presumably for a rope handle and the center bolt protrudes enough to accept a square nut.
But I didn't see any traces of super glue so my theory is starting to have holes. :(
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has anybody ever seen an attached sabot ?? Pete - your input ??
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This is getting interesting!
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Dave, I've never had the opportunity to micro-examine a stand of grape with the wooden sabot on it. That's why I'm excited to see that at least one nearly-intact field-recovered specimen of that kind (CWArtillery's) exists in a privately-owned collection. I suppose we could try asking the Parkies (US NPS employees) to examine the USS Cairo specimens they own, but in my experience it's difficult to find a Parkie who understands a "technical" question about artillery projectiles.
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I've done a lot of work for NPS in the past, and my old First Sergeant was part of the team that worked on the USS Cairo. I've sent them a missive, and perhaps we shall receive an answer. While the average NPS employee is no more knowledgeable on ordnance than the average woman on the street, I have had the pleasure of working with some very knowledgeable archeologists, curators, and conservationists in their employ. However, I will admit that most of the ones I knew are either retired or deceased.
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The people at the Cairo Museum are fairly accommodating and when I get out there next I'll sure check into it. But Joe, you did get me thinking about what they had on display. The image below is from the museum and shows the 8-inch grape stand next to what looks like it's wooden sabot. It has what appears to be a lathe dimple in the center but I can't be sure. There doesn't seem to be any sign of attachment. The signage that explains what each thing is doesn’t mention the wooden base but the numbering seems to indicate it goes with the grape stand.
(http://i1147.photobucket.com/albums/o556/Sitherwood/Forum_Images/Cairo_Grape_Stand_zpsf1ba057c.jpg) (http://s1147.photobucket.com/user/Sitherwood/media/Forum_Images/Cairo_Grape_Stand_zpsf1ba057c.jpg.html)
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Maybe they DID use glue! ;)
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If you look at the top of the wood sabot it seems that there is a recessed area at the top that goes all the way around the sabot. Could this have been the means of attachment? Is there a recess in the base plate or could it have been strapped to the base plate?
More things to contemplate.
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Another possibility: In the case of the USS Cairo: Could the stands of grape simply been have stored/stacked on the sabots? After 100 years of submersion, the one in this photograph as freshly recovered could have BECOME attached simply from chemical reaction and long contact. Did all of the stands recovered have attached wooden sabots? In the close quarters of a gunboat, it would make perfect sense to stack the grape on the wooden sabots to save space, avoid damaging the wooden decks, and to ensure there were enough sabots for all the stands. I'm not saying this is the case, as the earlier period photograph shows new stands with the sabots attached, but we don't have those examples to examine. Strapping is a possibility and could be easily done today. However, I'm not sure the high-carbon steel strapping that would have been required to apply the needed tension to both the bottom plate and the wooden sabot was availble in this time period as the apparently rabbetted edge on the sabot in the Museum photo would indicate. But, if there were small brad or nail holes in this recessed area, that would support the banding theory as the pressure would only have to be applied to the bottom plate.