Bullet and Shell Civil War Projectiles Forum
Relic Discussion => Wanted: Artillery => Topic started by: Lowcountry83 on February 06, 2013, 12:28:17 AM
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Hey guys I'm looking for a 3.67 hotchkiss base cup. Type 2 with the flame grooves. Preferably cleaned with good patent info if possible. Simple enough right? Thanks.
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Not so simple. ;-) There are several different lengths of Hotchkiss 3.67"-caliber base cups.
Assuming you want it for putting onto a Hotchkiss nose, you'll need to figure out exactly which version of 3.67"-caliber Hotchkiss nose you've got, and then get the correct base cup matchup for your nose.
Because the long-bodied 3.67"-caliber Hotchkiss projectiles made for use in a 20-pounder Parrott Rifle are so rare, I'll assume your Hotchkiss nose is the shorter version for a Rifled 6-pounder Smoothbore cannon. Here's a list of the Hotchkiss varieties for that type of cannon.
Rifled 6-pounder, Bolt (none have flamegrooves)
R6p, wood timefuzed, without flamegrooves
R6p, wood timefuzed, with flamegrooves
R6p, solder timefuze, without flamegrooves
R6p, solder timefuze, with flamegrooves
R6p, brass timefuze, Common-shell (all have flamegrooves)
R6p, brass timefuze, Case-Shot (all have flamegrooves)
R6p, iron Percussion fuze (none have flamegrooves)
R6p, brass Percussion fuze (none have flamegrooves)
On the above varieties, some have a very short base cup, or a longer one, and some have a rounded bottom, and some have a nearly-flat bottom. Compare the photos in the Dickey-&-George book.
Regards,
Pete
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Thanks Pete. I forgot to mention I want one with flame grooves. My nose has the top blown off, so I don't know what kind of fuse it took. The base cup doesn't have to be a correct match, as I just want it for a desk display. Thanks again...
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Odds are if the nose only is blown out, it was a case shot with a time fuse adapter.
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That's what I was going to say, but Mike beat me to it.
In both the 3" and 3.67"/3.8" calibers, the Hotchkiss Type 1 Case-Shot's nose had fairly thick sidewalls, which frequently resulted in only the tip of the nose blowing out (along with the case-shot balls). That problem was "mostly" corrected in the Type 2 version, by making the nose's sidewalls thinner than before, along with the addition of flamegrooves, which further diminished the nose's resistance to bursting.
Since your blown-out nose has flamegrooves, it sounds like yours is a Type 1 which was "retrofitted" with flamegrooves. We know for certain that Mr. Hotchkiss did that to a quantity of some of his Type 1 shells which had been manufactured without flamegrooves. The "retrofitted" grooves were added by grinding them into the nose's cast-iron body. When Hotchkiss Type 2 shells were manufactured, the flamegrooves were cast in the the iron body. The cast-in grooves are longer and wider than retrofitted grooves.
Regards,
Pete
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Interesting info Pete. I didn't realize there were that many types... What would you say the ratio is between retrofitted type 1's and regular type 2's?
Stephen
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Retrofitted Type 1 specimens are numerically rare in comparison to Type 2, because retrofitting was only done during a short "transition period" between production of the Type 1 and Type 2.
Regards,
Pete
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Pete,
I stumbled across this over the weekend. I suppose those flame grooves appear cast, negating the possibility of this being a Type 1 from First Winchester?
(http://i1362.photobucket.com/albums/r690/dungusmin/bab9c225-26a2-41d8-b7cd-e083cd7bb5b8_zpse69a9d57.jpg)
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Jine, although that is a very good close-up photo, I need precise measurements of the flamegrooves to be able to tell you with CERTAINTY whether it is a Type 2 Hotchkiss Case-Shot or a Type 1 with "retrofitted" flamegrooves.
The following data applies ONLY to 3"-caliber Hotchkiss Case-Shot:
The Type 2 version's flamegrooves are approximately .5" wide and 2.55" long.
"Retrofiitted" grooves are approximately .35" wide and 2.35" long.
Regards,
Pete
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Jine,
Next time I'm in Verona I'll stop by and get measurements for you ;D
They also had a nice Hotchkiss in the case to the right as you walked in along with some WWII stuff.