Bullet and Shell Civil War Projectiles Forum
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: bluelake on October 07, 2012, 04:11:50 AM
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This is my first post on this board. After reading through many of the threads, I'm sorry I didn't find this place before!
Although I am an American, I have lived and worked in Korea for about a quarter-century. During that time, I became very involved in historical research and even completed my master and doctorate degrees in Korean studies, with emphasis on history. My main subject of research is the first US military action in Korea, in 1871 (You can visit my site (http://www.shinmiyangyo.org) for more info). I have been researching it for about 17 years and have had a lot of hands-on experience with it, having done extensive field research along the US "line of march".
Together with my wife and son, along with a close colleague of mine, we have collected a great quantity of relics from the battle; they have been photographed, GPSed, etc., to preserve the history as much as possible. We are a bit racing against the clock, as modern "progress" has been eating up the historical areas--without regard to the history below--with much of it being lost.
The US Navy in 1871 was, essentially, the same as the US Navy during the ACW. For the most part, the uniforms, weapons, and accoutrements were the same. Some of the things we found were quite exciting, starting with small arms ammunition: .50-45 cal. Remington rolling block carbine (and pistol) brass and even whole cartridges, .577 cal. minie balls, .69 cal. minie balls, and even .38 cal. rounds from a revolver conversion cylinder; also, many .45 cal. Korean matchlock musket balls were recovered. We also found many fragments from 12-pdr. Dahlgren boat howitzer rounds (shell and case); my colleague even found an intact 3" Schenkl shell (He turned it over to the Korean Army Museum; they deactivated it and it is now in their exhibit). Just a couple weeks ago, he found a below-ground-exploded 4.5" Schenkl, with all the fragments and fuse together, which he is now restoring. Eventually, when the museum on the island where the action happened (Ganghwa Island) has a suitable exhibit, many of the relics will be donated to them.
As time permits, I will post some photos in the appropriate forums.
Thomas
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Welcome aboard, Thomas.
I believe Col. Biemick is familiar with that site from the time he was stationed in Korea and he made some interesting recoveries there. Although he is a member of this forum, he is more of a lurker than an active poster, but you can reach him via eMail through the forum.
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Thanks for the info. I found what I believe to be his e-mail address and sent him a message. I look forward to hearing from him. :)
One thing that's interesting is that few people--including Korean historical scholars--know the whole story of the 1871 battle. Most only know the popular stories regarding the three main fortresses that were captured by US forces and not what happened in-between (and even some of the popular stories are actually different from what people think they know). A great amount of the battle happened between the fortresses. For example, there is one village where a lot of action happened, but even the present-day villagers were unaware until my colleague and I talked with them; since our first visit there a long time ago, we have become a relatively common sight in the hills surrounding the village.
With luck, my doctoral dissertation on the subject will be published by the end of the year. It's quite lengthy, but with a lot of information about what happened. Still, I'm always looking for new information in various areas (which is why I've been working on the dissertation for so long).
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Welcome aboard Thomas and look forward to your participation.
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Thanks for the very interesting posting. I was not aware of such action after the Civil War. I enjoyed visiting your web site to learn more and hope to hear more from you as you join in our discussions. Welcome!
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Let me share a few of our finds; there have been many, but these are a few. The first one is a comparison of the original .50-45 cartridge, brass from 1871 and ones I prepared.
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The next one is of me holding the intact Schenkl 3" my colleague found.
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The next is the in-ground-exploded 4.5" Schenkl my colleague found.
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.577 and .69 minie balls.
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My son holding a 1.05" lead canister shot he found.
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Great post. I like those Indian War benet primed cartridges. Some of them should be iron primed so if you put a magnet on the bottom some of them will stick.
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An interesting thing about the RRB cartridges is, most of them were not drops, but duds (primer was hit). The after action report by Capt. McLane Tilton (USMC) explains that there was a lot of defective ammo among those packed in cardboard boxes (~50%), but none failed among those packed in wood boxes.
A bit of irony is that only sailors used the .50-45 RRB carbines, while marines used .577 Springfields and .69 Whitneyville Plymouths. Capt. Tilton was on the board that approved the RRB for naval use, but was denied any for his marines. He referred to the muzzleloaders his men had to use as "muzzle fuzzles". It was important, however, for my research that sailors and marines had clearly different arms; my colleague and I were able to ascertain exact troop positions dependent upon relics found: .50-45 cartridges/brass was Navy and .577/.69 drops were Marines.
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Here is a safety cap (from a 5 second fuse) I found where a US artillery battery was located:
(https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-snc7/33964_10150845679197045_625267044_9880182_899864671_n.jpg) (http://www.shinmiyangyo.org/5secfuse.jpg)
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BlueLake,
Nice safety cap. I'm surprised we don't see more of these found and for sale at shows.
An unrelated question, what are the laws for metal detecting like in Korea? Do you need permits or do you get access via your archeological efforts? Are people pretty open to you hunting ?
Thanks for sharing your experience. It's a nice discussion variety.
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Carl,
MDing in Korea is kind of a gray area. Somewhere in the law books, there is something regarding anything below ground belongs to the gov't, or some such wording, but I don't think there is anything particular against MDing. In my and my colleague's cases, we aren't treasure hunters--and the people in the areas we search know that (and many even try to help)--so we don't consider the relics necessarily our personal property; we are just caretakers until suitable exhibits are established. That's not to say we will give everything away; I use the relics in my possession for educational purposes--I teach Korean history in a Korean university and the show-and-tell items add a lot to it. Actually, most of our relics would have been tossed away by Koreans if they found them; anything less than a couple-hundred years old here is considered modern and not of particular interest by most Koreans (and most wouldn't realize their significance anyway). I have sometimes joked that I'm just picking up litter Americans left here 141 years ago ;)
The sad thing is, in the next five to ten years, I believe most of the 1871 historical areas will be gone--dug up to put in factories and houses (I've seen it happen before my eyes). I am racing against the clock to preserve it before then.
Thomas
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I heard back from Col. Biemeck yesterday. His story regarding the 1871 Korean military action seems very interesting. He's away on a trip for a few days, so we will, hopefully, connect after that. I look forward to discussing his experiences in the 70s when he searched the battle areas--I think it will be very informative. Thanks, emike123, for the reference!
Thomas
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Thomas, your photo of the "3-inch Schenkl" shell shows it has indented ribs ...so I'm reasonably certain is a US Navy 3.4"-caliber Schenkl. It would have been fired from the Navy's 3.4" Dahlgren Rifled Boat Howitzer.
Also... the cannon which fired a 4.5" Schenkl was the 4.5" Siege-&-Garrison Rifle. As its name implies, it was a Land Service cannon ...and it was so ponderously heavy that it very rarely got used during civil war battles. (If I recall correctly, only used at 6 civil war battlesites). Perhaps your larger Schenkl shell is a Navy 4.4" Schenkl, rather than the Army's 4.5"-caliber version. If so, your larger Schenkl would have been fired by the Navy's 4.4" Dahlgren Rifle.
I've included a mention of the cannon types because if you can reseach the artillery armament of each of the Navy ships involved in the 1871 Korea expedition, perhaps you'll be able to figure out which specific ship fired your shells.
Regards,
Pete
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Thanks for the input, Pete. Regarding the smaller Schenkl, it was a measurement my colleague made, so I relied on it; I'll ask him. Regarding the larger Schenkl, it would have been fired by the USS Monocacy, which had the following armament: (2) 60-pdr Parrott rifles, (4) 8-in. guns, (2) 20-pdr. rifled Dahlgrens, (2) 24-pdr howitzers, plus they borrowed (2) 9-in. guns from the USS Colorado.
Thomas
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I have a fragment of a small Schenkl that I found that would have been fired from the same battery as the intact one my colleague found. I traced its outline and, at that point in the shell, it measured 3.25" across, so it was at least that diameter. That supports the 3.4" suggestion. Good info!
T
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The following is meant as friendly, educational information -- not argumentation. Pardon me, please, if you already know all the info.
The USS Monacacy's artillery armament list incudes a "20-pounder" Dahlgren Rifle. That cannon's caliber is 4.0-inches. So, if your larger Schenkl shell is 4.5"-caliber, it cannot have been fired the the Monacacy.
As I mentioned previously, a 4.5"-caliber Schenkl was for the the US Army's 4.5" Siege-&-Garrison Rifle, a Land Service cannon. Also as mentioned previously, it was so ponderously heavy that it was used in very few civil war battles. I have to say, as it was such a ponderous cannon, so seldom used, it seems not very likely that any would have been sent on the Korea expedition.
That being said, there was a 4.4"-caliber Schenkl shell. It was made for use in the US Navy's 4.4" Dahlgren "30-pounder" Rifle. (The USS Monacacy's "20-pounder" Dahlgren Rifles were 4.0-inch caliber.)
You see why we need truly Precision measuring of your shell's diameter to help you accurately determine which ship (or battery) fired it. Of course, with uncleaned excavated projectiles, any rust/dirt-crust thickness must be carefully accounted for and excluded from the diameter measurement.
In case you don't already know... projectiles for Muzzleloader cannons were always a bit smaller in diameter than the cannon's bore. For example, a 4.4"-caliber Schenkl shell's diameter was typically about 4.35 inches.
Sidenote:
Civil war artillery scholars have urged people to use a "pounder" designation only for Smoothbore cannons. With Rifled cannons, the "pounder" designation tends to cause unnecessary confusion. Here are some of many examples:
"12-pounder" Dahlgren Rifle = 3.4" caliber
"12-pounder" Blakely Rifle = 3.5" caliber
"20-pounder" Parrott Rifle = 3.67" caliber
"20-pounder" Dahlgren Rifle = 4.0" caliber
"30-pounder" Parrott Rifle = 4.2" caliber
"30-pounder" Dahlgren Rifle = 4.4" caliber
Regards,
Pete
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Pete,
I'm really glad to have this discussion--I really appreciate your input.
The large Schenkl had to have been fired from the Monocacy for a couple reasons. One, there were only two of the five US ships that were sent up the Ganghwa Straits (Salt River): USS Monocacy (double-ender gunboat) and USS Palos (screw tug/gunboat). That was because they were suited to shallow water situations, which the Ganghwa Straits was; the other three were larger sail-and-steam vessels. The Palos was quite small (as it was a converted tug) and is only listed as having "2 guns" (although no mention could be found on what was exactly on the Palos, other ACW tugs listed two 24-pounders). The large Schenkl was fired on June 10, 1871, just as the US force carrying troops passed a small island at the mouth of the straits. Commander E.P. McCrea, of the Monocacy, recorded firing that (and a few other) shell: "At 11:30 a.m., as we came up with the battery on the south end of Louise Island, we threw into it a few shells, but received no reply, as the battery was deserted". While it is possible the Monocacy could have had a 30-pounder added to its arsenal, it is doubtful, as ammunition expended on June 1 (the initial date of hostilities) included the following: 60-pdr. rifled 5-sec percussion shells, 8-in. rifled 5-sec. percussion shells, 20-pdr. rifled howitzer shells, and 24-pdr. smoothbore shells. For the main battle, which happened on June 10-11, the USS Colorado loaned the Monocacy (2) 9-in. guns; no other guns are listed as being transferred to the Monocacy.
My colleague is restoring the large Schenkl and, after that is completed, maybe we can have more definitive dimensions.
Yes, I am familiar with windage in muzzleloader cannons.
Great discussion! :)
Thomas
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UPDATE: My colleague was just in the process of cleaning the shell up and piecing it together. He needed another pair of hands to help, so I went over and did so. We were also able to get better info, now that it's been cleaned up.
The diameter of the large Schenkl is 3.87", so it looks like this was a 4" shell, which seems to indicate use with the 20-pounders that were on the Monocacy. It's good to clear up the mystery; thanks, Pete, for the incentive to do so :)
Thomas
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A view before it was pieced back together...