Bullet and Shell Civil War Projectiles Forum
Relic Discussion => Artillery => Topic started by: alwion on January 23, 2012, 12:09:33 PM
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http://www.ebay.com/itm/220938468129?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649
Wanted you guys to not miss this. As to my post about how bad offline sales have gotten, I did email to be sure that this would run full length, reply as follows
I have indeed had several offers ranging from $600 from some person in North Carolina to $1,750 from some other scumbag trying to lowball me. I have blocked them as bidders and reported them to eBay for their behavior. I appreciate your warning, but if I end this auction early, it will not be to sell it to one of those guys.
Opinion, He will either take a high offer or will end early if its not going high enough. Verging on the "Dark Side", but this once again is how the "games" being played >:(
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watching other auctions where they post the Q&A openly, he does this continuously, and bet he has gotten some great stuff :(
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I made some minor edits to this thread. We aren't the eBay police here and I'd prefer not to air personalized commentary. Regardless of the who, the point being made is a lot of people are trying to get folks with nice things on eBay to end them early at low prices. Its not my bag, but it is what it is. I applaud you for trying to warn naive sellers though Alan. Kudos.
For what it is worth, I think that is a $2,800-$3,500 projectile.
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No harm, no foul. I applaud those who make offers, because it gives me more choices. The market is free, gentlemen.
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Sorry Mike,
I started this string of threads about ebay with my unwitting question about someone selling a Shenkl for $12.00
I have my answerrs. I will stop this.
Best Regards,
John aka Bart
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Hey John, I think it's Great you posted the question!!!!! And I'm glad we got the posts we did so we know more. Yes this is an artillery forum, and we want it to be about projectiles, but frauds, buying, selling, and how that works are parts of the information we all need to aquire and study our passions, and any helpfull info should be posted here, as its all part of it. I think most posts and opinions are ok, as long as we are learning, not just slamming someone.
We are all here to help with what we know, whether its buying, shells, preservation, etc
Thanks all
Sorry about that personal name copy Mike, I understand, didn't think about that privacy act stuff:) won't happen again
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Turns out I know the woman who listed this bolt. She lives not far from me and is a widow and her husband had a very nice Civil War collection. Here sister's husband did too and when her sister's husband passed, she got taken advantage of pretty badly. So this woman with the CS James projectile is no dummy and my guess is she will end the auction early because so much tom foolery is going on about it (she told me she has over 40 people watching it and lots of people asking her to end it early for bogus reasons including one guy many of us know who told her it was probably live and she should just give it to him before it was confiscated by the cops). I hope she gets a fair price because in my opinion she can probably use it and she's a nice lady so good for her.
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I have talked to her now several times, seems very nice, have my fingers crossed for her, hope she does well
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I don't see what the big deal is here. It is the sellers item and he is free to do what he wants with it. If I have something on ebay and someone discreetly offers me what I deem as fair value, I would sell it to them and save myself ebay and paypal fees. Free enterprise!
I have received ebay messages from people irate and cussing me out for closing an item down before the auction ended, simply because I changed my mind and decided to keep it.
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To All,
Someone please tell me what makes this a C.S. projectile. James is Federal, could it not have been an early model??
John
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More correctly, it is patterned on the James style. It is designed a 3.3in Confederate gun and copies some of the Federal James projectiles characteristics, namely the "birdcage" ribs covered by lead (but not in turn by tin as with the true James projectiles).
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Mike,
I understand it has been identified as a copy of the James pattern to be used in a 3 inch C.S. gun. What references do we have that the C.S. made it on the James design? Do we know for a fact that it was not U.s. made??
I guess the point I am trying to make is this not another perpetuated error? Why isn't it union made??
Best Regrds,
John
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3.3 inch gun, John. Find me a Union one of them and maybe we can reopen this long settled matter of it being a CS projectile.
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3.3 inch gun, John. Find me a Union one of them and maybe we can reopen this long settled matter of it being a CS projectile.
Concur. Caliber tells the tale.
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Great answer, although I am not a tube guy. Was this the only 3.3 inch shell used by the C.S. and at the battle of Shiloh?
Thank you.
John
P.s. Does anyone know when John P. Schenkl died?
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These CS James are recovered at Port Hudson, LA.
3.3" Archers are recovered at Shiloh. There were two Louisiana batteries with 3.3inch guns at Shiloh, the Washington Artillery and another one I can't remember off the top of my head.
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Thanks Mike,. Guess I should have got into tubes but projectiles and fuzes were enough for me. I know they are related but just couldn't get into them. Guess ifr I did I would not asking these apparently dumb questions. If Port Hudson were the projectiles only location it would seem like one heck of an expenditure of time, materials and funds. Do we know approximately how many were made/expended?
Gotta keep the Schenkl alive, when did he die?
Best,
John
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3.3 confederate tube D&G list a Archer, Burton, James, Marshall arsenal common shell, Marshal arsenal 4-stud mullane, various Reads,Selma disc, borman fused case shot, Dahlgren, all CS copies for that size
In Bells book shows John schenkl was killed in 1863 when an experimental fuse exploded. seem to recall elsewhere he was "working on it" and his compound secrete died with him, but can't remember the source
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Alan,
He was killed by an experimental fuze? That almost sounds like the way James was killed. Are you certain of it?
According to a letter from the War of the Rebellion, Series 1, Page Page 676
"JANUARY 8, 1862 I am informed that the mail will leave today for the Tootle. It may be well to state that the Schenkl shot that have been supplied to the battery appear to the tam large ill their paper envelopes, than envelopes or cylinders fitting too close for a foul piece. The only means that I have of reducing them is to pass them through a hot ring." (minus a couple of OCR conversion error).
The union was experiencing problems with the paper mache swelling long before John Schenkl died.
It is evident that after his death, his wife Frederica received a patent in Jan 1865 that showed earlier corrections adopted for the problem including the two bands and rear plate.
It is doubtful that a dept full of workers would not know what they were adding to the ground up paper to give it the right casting and weatherproofing qualities in order to cast the "mess" onto a wooden form to dry. Comments? See patent #45,951 . She was apparently in partnorship with Edward A. Dana.
All the Best,
Bart
John
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The 3.3-inch CS James have been found at Port Hudson and Shiloh for sure. It seems to me that I've seen/heard of another location one was found at but I can't recall for sure. More of the 3.3-inch Archers were found at Shiloh than the James it seems but the 3.3-inch Archer shells and bolts are found at a number of locations in both theatres. For as rare as the 3.3-inch gun is, there is a good variety of ammunition for it as Alan points out.
Also of note, there is no definite US ammunition such as a Parrott, Hotchkiss, etc that are for the 3.3-inch calibre. And with as much variety as Hotchkiss and Parrott made there would proably be at least one of those if the US had a gun to put it in.
Additionally, does anyone know where the dropped 3.3-inch CS James were found at Port Hudson? If found within the CS lines it would lend strong circumstancial evidence to support what there is little doubt about anyway and that is that they are Confederate and deserving of their high value! ;)
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We have at least 2 Port Hudson gurus amongst our members so please speak up on this R and J!
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John , I have confused James with Schenkl, disregaurd rank and method of death. I used to have an almost photo memory, 40 years ago, now I'm like a computer with a virus:)
1863 Date and info on Sabot secret are in Bell's, along with part about not even known to wife. I notice the patent reads like a grocery list, and contains no proportions , timing, or steps, which was probably the "secret". I think she had a good lawyer, it's general enough she would get royalties on any paper sabot design. According to Jack, it wasn't just swelling problems after his death, but sometimes also too hard to take the rifling, or too soft and swelling, implying that something wasn't done as consistently as previous. I though about the workers and quanity involved, but no one seems to know the formula even now, so there was a step involved he didn't share or they kept it well for him. Some compounds are very specific, one component added at wrong time or quanity changes the whole batch. Could also have just been a quality control issue. I don't know more
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31. -- SCHENKL, JOHN P., the inventor of the Schenkl Shell, died in Herdelberg, Germany, whither he had gone for his health, aged about 40 years.
http://www.nytimes.com/1865/01/29/news/dead-1864-january-february-march-may-june-july-august-september-october-november.html?pagewanted=all
course this just confuses why his wife was here and no one would know the process if he was ill and left the country. another mystery
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Emike & All -
Did we not have examples of 3.3" projectiles recovered at Blakeley & Spanish Fort? Seems to me that there was a gun tube there that had been rebored to that size?
Selma Hunter
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Selma Hunter:
There were so many tubes in and around that area that it wouldn't surprise me to learn there were 3.3" ones there. I am not sure they'd be re-bored tubes, but rather those 3.3" CS guns that turned up in surprisingly many places from Virginia to Louisiana. I do not recall seeing a 3.3" projectile that was known to have been recovered in Spanish Fort or Fort Blakely, but you have better sources in those places.
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Selma Hunter wrote:
> Did we not have examples of 3.3" projectiles recovered at Blakeley & Spanish Fort?
On a shell-digging trip with Tom Dickey in the mid-1970s, I personally dug a 3.3" Read shell out of the exterior face of a yankee cannon emplacement at Spanish Fort AL. That specimen had a "tall" thin copper sabot, showing 7-groove rifling marks, and the distinctive Selma-style baseknob. Its fuze was the CS copy of the "West Point" 2-piece percussion fuze.
Regards,
Pete
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Pete,
Can you post an image of the Read?
John
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No, I can't post a photo of it, because I sold it to help pay for my college tuition. But here are a couple of photos showing the exact type of 3.3"-caliber Read shell I dug at Spanish Fort. One of the photos shows an unfired sabot. Mine was definitely fired, having nice clear 7-groove rifling.
Regards,
Pete
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Thanks Pete,
A beautiful speciman. Can you photograph the fuze parts for us?
John
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By John D. Bartleson Jr.'s request, here's a photo showing all the parts of a Confederate "West Point" percussion fuze. As you see, its overall form quite similar to the yankees' James percussion fuze ...so, some collectors call it a "Confederate James fuze." But this particular Confederate version differs from the James in the following ways:
1- The conical copperbrass anvil-cap's tip is distinctly flat.
2- The anvil-cap's underside is solid, instead of recessed like the James version.
3- The slider is made of a white-metal alloy, similar to solder.
4- The slider's top has two small copper wires, which are positioned on opposite sides of the nipple. The wires' purpose is to hold the percussion-cap firmly on the nipple.
5- The nipple is an integral part of the slider ...meaning, the nipple and slider are a single piece of metal. The James percussion fuze used a steel nipple, which was screwed into the slider's top.
Regards,
Pete
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Excellant Pete,
Did your Read come from the Oconee River cache?
Regards,
John
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Pete,
Was this shell made at the Selma Arsenal? "Selma base knob" does this mean that not all Reads will have the lathe dimple which was, hither-to-fore , a Read I.D. feeature?
Regards,
John
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John D. Bartleson wrote:
> Did your Read come from the Oconee River cache?
No. Seven posts back in this discussion, I said "On a shell-digging trip with Tom Dickey in the mid-1970s, I personally dug a 3.3" Read shell out of the exterior face of a yankee cannon emplacement at Spanish Fort AL."
> Was this shell made at the Selma Arsenal?
Yes, my Spanish Fort AL specimen was made at Selma. But there is another variation of 3.3" Read which was made at some other Deep South foundry.
> "Selma base knob" does this mean that not all Reads will have the lathe dimple which was, hither-to-fore , a Read I.D. feeature?
Yes, not all Read projectiles have the lathe dimple in the baseknob. A chief defining characteristic of the Selma Read baseknob is the lack of a lather dimple. Another characteristic is that the Selma Read baseknob looks very much like a York Peppermint Patty. Meaning, the Selma Read baseknob
1- is very thick
2- with steeply rounded edges
3- a perfectly-flat top
4- no lathe dimple.
The example of a Selma Read baseknob shown in the photo below is on a 6.4" Read Bolt. Note that it has no lathe dimple.
Regards,
Pete
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How do you all remember all this. There is so much to know. great stuff!!!!!!
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Longevity and computers :) and working together by sharing knowledge.
John
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Ihave found the 3.25 cs James at Shiloh and at port Hudson, both fired intonthe federal lines, and I havevfound many drops behind cs gun positions
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A frag of a CS James was found at Perryville last year.