Bullet and Shell Civil War Projectiles Forum
Relic Discussion => Artillery => Topic started by: Joe Walker on September 25, 2019, 05:27:49 PM
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Years ago I was looking for info on the 7th Texas at Raymond, MS and got in touch with a digger that told me that the burst Whitworth that Bledsoe's CS battery had there was a muzzle loader, not a breech loader. He said that was verified when another digger found the breach near a school that was being built. Some time later I posted this "fact" on some blog or website and a "expert" challenged me on this. About a month later he came back with "you were right". I think it was Reilly Gunter's (sp) son out of Memphis. I had met Reilly Sr. a couple of times, and not sure if he is still alive. I was hoping someone out there could chime in on the subject or have contact info on these men- thanks, Joe
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According to Jack Melton in CivilWarArtillery.com there was seven breechloading and five muzzle loading 12# Whitworths in the South during the Civil War (which seems rather too few) and unless I'm mistaken Riley Gunter Sr. has passed away. The last time that I saw Riley he was working for Raphael Eledge and he may be able to help you.
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Thanks for that info. I will contact Mr. Shiloh Relics.
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I recall seeing a cannon breech that was found at Raymond displayed at a show many years ago but it was reported at that time to be a 6-lber based on what was found across from the recovery site.
Riley is in fact deceased:
https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/167496752/riley-wayne-gunter
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Thanks Carl! Can you please elaborate on your comment "based on what was found across from the recovery site" if you remember. I recall that the breech was found at the construction site of a school. There is an elementary school near where Bledsoe had his guns placed today.
Joe
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This was at the Marietta Show long ago. I think the owner sold it and I might have seen it again at a later show but can't recall for sure. On display with the cannon breech was a 6-lber solid shot that the person indicated was likely fired from the cannon. He had the breech sitting on it's side in the same profile as it would be if part of the complete tube on a carriage and then the 6-lber ball positioned on a stand in front of what would have been the powder chamber. He indicated it was of CS use (and presumably manufacture). This was something like 25 to 30 years ago. if I remember correctly it had sat on someone's porch for some time before this guy acquired it. I'll ask some of my old hunting friends if they remember it.
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Thanks.
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For what it’s worth, I’ve been told that the source putting a Whitworth at the battle of Raymond is shaky. One can search the historical record to see this. It comes from Ed Bearss’ seminal three-volume work on the Vicksburg Campaign. However, Bearss does not cite the source from which he got the information. Ive been told that he got it from a contemporary at the time of his writing, but that he could not recall who it was.
Like Carl, I also saw what was represented to be the cannon breech found at Raymond. This was about 25 years ago at a museum located in the rear of a restaurant next to the Vicksburg military park. It was also a 6 pdr.
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Thanks! Very good to know that I am not the only one that can't find the origin of the "Whitworth" story.
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Yes. I suppose it will remain a mystery. Of course, I live in Raymond so I do not openly contradict the belief that a Witworth was there. It’s important to some of the folks here, so I let it be.
When I was in high school, my brother and I spent many hours metal detecting out there, and though we recovered several fragments and one shell, none were Witworth. I also helped with the archaeological recovery on the battlefield when the Friends of Raymond purchased the property. We did not find any Witworth evidence. Of course, that doesn’t mean much, for if there was a Witworth there and it burst early on in the battle, there would be few indications of it anyway.
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Here are two views of a cannon breech photo'ed by Charlie Harris at a western show a few years ago. I don't know what the story was. However, it resembles one I photo'ed at a Nashville Show around 1990. It was dug around Raymond or Jackson - I published a short story about it in the North/South Trader but can't lay my hands on it right now. If it was the same exploded breech, the digger believed it had been a 3-inch Rifle and displayed a 3-inch Archer bolt with it that he was certain had been fired by that gun.
I have found recorded evidence of 3 breech-loading Whitworth guns sent to the western theater. Two sent to Baton Rouge by the Fayetteville Arsenal and one sent to Vicksburg by the Augusta Arsenal. The barrels had been imported from England (at least two on the Modern Greece) and the accompanying carriages, implements and projectiles made at the CS arsenals. All were positively breech-loading. Shipments included tin canisters for powder and "lubricating wads." I suspect the modification to muzzle-loading occurred in 1864.
Woodenhead
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I meant to include this letter with the previous posting. This is how I know the two breech-loading Whitworths were sent to Baton Rouge.
W.H.
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Hello,
Great info. That looks just like the one I saw in Marietta and is likely it. There can't be a lot of those around. Would be nice to find out who owns it and measure the bore size to see if it was 3" or 3.67".
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I may have missed the answer to the question I'm about to ask if so please forgive my ignorance but all the talk lately about converting a Whitworth from breach loading to muzzle loading and our discussion about what a pain it would have been ramming the load home got me wondering. WHY? What would be the reason or benefit for doing this? Just curious.
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Hello,
I've never pushed a projectile down a Whitworth gun breech or muzzle loading so I can only guess but I'd think it wouldn't be terribly hard as it is metal on metal twisting down the tube. Unless there was some sort of wooden cup on the bottom of the shell that would drag but I'm not aware if there was. In the D&G book it is mentioned that there is no sabot.
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I respectfully disagree. I believe the necessity of the shell having to turn as it is pushed home would cause some resistance. How much I haven't a clue, I've never been a civil war gunner. However you would have to push hard enough to make it turn as it was going down. I think there would have to be considerable effort. Only my humble opinion with no experience obviously. Regardless I still don't know the reason for converting, even without a twist, isn't it faster to load a breach loader as opposed to a muzzle loader anyway. I am sure there is a reason or they would not have done it.
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I meant to include this letter with the previous posting. This is how I know the two breech-loading Whitworths were sent to Baton Rouge.
W.H.
Thanks Wooden Head. The pictures you posted of the burst cannon looks exactly like the one I saw many years ago at a private museum in Vicksburg. If I recall correctly, a digger by the name of Kevin Williams (or something) found it. He was there when I saw it. If that’s the one I saw, he claimed it came from the battle of Raymond.
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I knew the guy that found that burst cannon tube. He lived in Clinton, MS. I never hunted with him but knew him and viewed many of his finds.
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He is the same guy who had it when I saw it.