Bullet and Shell Civil War Projectiles Forum
Relic Discussion => Artillery => Topic started by: Steve Phillips on September 13, 2017, 11:43:56 AM
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Yesterday I received a new toy. It is a endoscope like they stick up you when you get a colonoscopy. I ordered it so I could look inside shells. I took this photo of the interior of a 3 inch segmented Selma made shell. Everyone calls them Brouns but I don't much like that name applied to these Selma Segmented Reads. All these segmented shells were made at Selma and most if not all were issued to Forrest late in the war. Anyway the endoscope is fun to use and easy to learn how. Also they are cheap, I think it only cost about $30. It is wireless connection to my iPad and also works on phones or laptop.
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cool!
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That is cool. But please don't show us any internal personal cavities.
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You should think about changing your diet.
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What do you mean when you say the 3 inch Read with a segmented interior was made at Selma? Did the great CS Naval Ordnance Works at Selma make them? It is my understanding that the relatively small Army arsenal at Selma never made any shells. They were sent there by other arsenals and private contractors. A March 1, 1864, letter from James Burton to Selma's Col. White inquired about "a considerable quantity of iron castings are required for building purposes at this Armory [Macon]," which the Ord. Dept. had suggested could be supplied by Selma. Burton continued: "I learn, however, from Col. R. M. Cuyler [Commander Macon Arsenal], who has just returned from Selma, that you have no foundry attached to the Arsenal under your command, and that all your castings are made by contract at the Selma Iron Works." I believe this was Churchill & Co., who had relocated from Mississippi and was a primary source of artillery projectiles.
I believe your 3 inch Read was a product of the Augusta Arsenal. Contemporary correspondence confirms that all of their field caliber rifle ammunition, except 10 & 20 pounder Read-Parrotts, had segmented interiors. Col. Rains reported receiving special permission from Richmond to employ this experimental design around March 1863, and they were still making segmented shells in mid-1864. The segmented Whitworth shells found at Chancellorsville and Gettysburg came from Augusta. I found the invoice. The CS 3.67 inch "Selma" Broun shell with the "star" cavity [Dickey/George 1993 ed., pg. 136] found in the river at Selma appears to be an Augusta Arsenal product. And Augusta made all of the smooth-sided 3.5 inch Reads with segmented interiors. I don't have any reports that shine light on the final nine months of the war, but it is possible the production of field caliber rifle shells with segmented interiors continued. But this fact I do have documented - one of the last trains to arrive at Selma shortly before it fell in April 1865 had several cars filled with the contents of Augusta's artillery store house. It appears the contents were quickly dumped in the river. Labeling them "Selma shells" naturally followed.
Two Augusta Arsenal shells, pictured below, have segmented interiors. The records strongly suggest that only Augusta produced 'star' interiors in their field caliber rifle ammo (excluding Read-Parrotts). The first two views show a rare 3.67 inch Broun shells found in the river at Selma. Available records show only Augusta cast this caliber during 1864-65. Its cast brass sabot, machined on the interior, and the fairly flat iron bottom and dimple closely resemble a number of contemporary Augusta shells.
Two views of a badly rusted 3.5 inch Read intended for the imported Blakely Rifles. Reportedly part of the cache found in VA during 1960s at Long Bridge. Note the segmented "star" interior that Augusta received special permission to use. I don't think any other foundry made field caliber shells with this feature. Please straighten me out if anyone knows otherwise. Augusta began casting these during the fall of 1863 following a request from the Army of TN for 3.5 shells for one or two Blakely Rifles under Gen. Longstreet's command. Augusta apparently copied the smooth body and overall appearance of the 3.5 inch shells produced by Samson & Pae since late 1862. Noteworthy difference was no lathe key on nose of Augusta's and cast brass sabot on these as opposed to S & P's use of rolled brass or copper. And of course, no field caliber rifle shells with segmented interiors were made in VA. In early 1864, Augusta sent these to Mobile, Charleston and the Army of Tenn. Very few from VA.
Hey Steve, it would help me if some time you could send a full length pic of your 3 inch segmented Read. Augusta sent most of its Reads to Richmond. I'd like to compare to other photos. Where else have these 3 inch Reads been found? Records show in early 1864 Augusta was sending artillery ammo directly to Gen. Forrest.
Woodenhead
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Researching documents is not the actual truth. Selma was in my opinion the most important manufacturer for the Confederacy in the last couple years of the war. 6 to 10 thousand people were making all kinds of stuff for the confederacy. Selma has never received the recognition that it deserves. I'm not a researcher of documents but have found so many unfinished items at Selma that there is no doubt where the items were made. Augusta or Macon wouldn't be a pimple on Selma's butt.
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Great discussion!....I want to hear from Pete and Wellhunter!
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Everything you said is true except one word is missing - "Navy." The CS Naval Works at Selma were awesome. They cast thousands of big guns and projectiles of the highest quality. There was a separate Army depot at Selma, however, that adopted the "Arsenal" label around the start of 1863. The Army and Navy ordnance facilities operated in separate universes. A low level of hostility existed mainly coming from Cmdr. Brooke and his Navy associates directed against the Army's ordnance establishment. It heated up in Richmond during the winter of 1861-62 when Brooke experimented with the Army's current crop of large caliber projectiles, i.e. the 32 pounder Archer, lead-sabot "Tredegar" and various versions of the Dahlgren. He couldn't believe how bad they were. As he expressed in his book, it was obvious the Army ordnance officers hadn't properly tested them and didn't seem to care enough to do anything about it. Consequently, Brooke set the CS Navy on course to make their own cannon and projectiles. The CS Navy found their own sources of iron. By 1863-65, Selma's Naval Works had little or nothing to do with the relatively small Army Arsenal. When the Army's Col. White required some iron castings at Selma, he contracted with a private shop. Except in a few extreme emergencies, requesting help from the expansive Naval Works was not an option. This should be obvious in the letter below.
So Steve, for the sake of this discussion, forget the tons of castings and implements you and others have been recovering for years. Yes, the Naval Works and the private Selma Iron Works across the street dumped tons of cool stuff in the river. I've seen it in your basement. Probably more than anyone but Tredegar. My only concern here is with the Army's field caliber projectiles found on the river bottom. The Naval Works didn't make them and the Army's Selma Arsenal had no foundry. Furthermore, with the documentation made available recently, it can be affirmed that Augusta, and only Augusta, made field caliber shells with segmented interiors. Also, Augusta was asked by Richmond in early 1863 to produce a quantity of the tiny 2.25 inch Mountain Rifle shells. Later correspondence and production records confirms they did so. The little round hole in the wooden plug seen in the 2.25 inch Mullane below fits a Rains percussion "pencil point" fuze. In early 1864, Augusta sent several hundred and two of the lightweight guns directly to Gen. Forrest. For some reason, they were not accepted and Forrest received two 3 inch Rifles in their place. I haven't found the invoice, but I'll guarantee Augusta sent 3 inch Reads with segmented interiors if they have been found in his battle sites.
In summary, it appears that no field-caliber Army shells were ever made at Selma. Don't take my word for it, listen to Col. Cuyler, respected commander of the Macon Arsenal, telling Col. Burton as much in the letter below. We must look for other explanations for some of those "Selma" shells found on the river bottom. I've got the contemporary correspondence reporting the delivery of the contents of the Augusta Arsenal by rail within 24 or 48 hours of the city's surrender. I'll be happy to post any documents anyone wants to examine. This is all part of an effort to identify the makers and time period of as many projectiles as possible. There is still a lot to learn. This generation of life-long diggers and collectors has to do it or it will not get done. Its what Tom would want.
Woodenhead
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Very informative topic.
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Okay Woodenhead, you are going to make me prove it. I just went downstairs and took a few photos. I only have part of my collection here and the rest is at two other locations so I can't show all unfinished items. You must remember that the arsenal and the navy works were not the main producers for Selma. The private manufacturers were and there are very few written records that have survived. I'm going to try to post ten photos and explain them. I will have to post the photos separate.
0. This is a poor casting of a 3 inch Selma Read type that is usually segmented but this one is the second variety. It is not segmented and is threaded for a screw in fuze or holder. It was discarded before the sabot was applied.
0. This is a 3 inch Brooke that is unfinished. The hole for the bolt was never drilled and only has the lathe dimple.
0. Same
0. This is an extremely rare CS 3.25 Dahlgren (two known) that is unfinished. The sabot was never applied.
0. These parts are for a Selma bit. Never assembled and I have other parts where the holes were not made yet.
0. CS Leech and Rigdon type tongue buckles that were poor castings. We have found many complete tongues and wreaths at that spot as well as the furniture parts they were melting to make the buckles. Many of these buckles as well as the types with stars were made at Selma. The poor castings prove they were made there . Nobody would ship a poor casting from another location.
0. CS Selma made Borman fuze. I have found many 24 pounder case shot with these fuzes at Selma.
0. Same
0. Some of my unfinished bayonets that were made at Selma. I have found many of these over the last 40+ years diving at Selma. I have many other bayonets of other styles that were made at Selma. I don't know of any records that were written about any bayonets being made at Selma but I think there were more made there than anywhere. They made saber bayonets, shotgun bayonets, a large variety of socket bayonets as well as swords.
0. Same Selma made everything . I've found where they were punching out rowels for spurs. They made Girardy fuzes, Archer fuzes, water cap fuzes, all kinds of friction primers including tin plated iron primers. They made horseshoes and nails by the thousands. They made artillery sights and the tools for firing the guns. I've even found a rifle lock plate that didn't have any screw holes drilled. Selma has never been given the credit it deserves. Birmingham did not exist until 1872 and was created because of what was available in raw materials in Alabama and this was demonstrated by what was made at and for Selma. Birmingham became the second largest producer of iron and steel second only to Pittsburgh. By the way just for the record most of the artillery projectiles that were found at Milledgeville Georgia were made at Selma. Not all but most.
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Finally, some meat on the bone. My big awareness while researching was that the Army's Selma Arsenal did not appear to produce any shells. But I can see that your concept of "Selma" included the entire operation including the many local private contractors. That's legitimate. Let's take a close look at their operations and see if we can account for who was making bayonets, bits, buckles, etc. I'll post the letter describing the last train to Selma full of Augusta's munitions, tools, etc. This has the potential of greatly increasing our knowledge of who made what.
W.H.
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An interesting, informative and very appreciated post for someone with an interest in Selma.
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All,
The term "Selma Arsenal" has been repeated to such an extent that the true story has been obscured by the many misconceptions that have resulted from the assumption that EVERYTHING that happened in Selma was connected to the Army Arsenal. Not so. Selma was in actuality a wide network of business, industry and military activity engaged in almost every aspect and element of wartime production. Food, forage, cotton, etc. were clearly the focus of the local agricultural interests. Local industry manufactured almost everything that was needed by the troops in the field. Shovels, picks, pots, pans, horseshoes, nails, etc. and many other essentials were made, warehoused and shipped from the central location throughout the war. It was one of the two gateways that served the Department of Alabama, Mississippi, Eastern Louisiana and Western Tennessee. This is a region I have called the “Trans- Chattahoochee” since that neatly sums it up geographically. The other gateway was down the railroad to the Tensaw landing (Mobile Bay) and across the bay by boat to Mobile and the Mobile & Ohio RR. This entire story is told in my book (out of print) on Selma. The title speaks for itself. ..
THE UNTOLD STORY OF CIVIL WAR SELMA, ALABAMA AS A CENTER OF MANUFACTURING, TRANSPORTATION, SHIPBUILDING AND LOGISTICS DURING THE WAR OF NORTHERN AGGRESSION – 1861-1865.
Military goods of all description were also procured from the many local businesses there. As one of the only sources within the South able to produce highest quality iron following a calamitous spring of 1862 Selma became even more critical to the war effort. As early as May 1862 the Army moved the federal Mt. Vernon Arsenal to Selma and began production of cartridges and all manner of pyrotechnics. Old flintlocks were converted to percussion ignition and guns of every kind captured, gleaned or otherwise obtained were repaired and returned to useful service. Selma had and has a very well qualified community of gunsmiths dating to the early 1850’s. Their services proved useful to the cause. Much of the artillery ammunition that flowed through Selma originated from contractors operating furnaces elsewhere – mostly north of the city in the Cahaba River basin. The C. B. Churchill Company in Columbiana, AL was one such firm. The available invoices and records reflect everything from 6 lbr balls to 12 lbr Whitworth bolts to 10” shells – to name a few.
The CS Navy had established a shipyard there in 1862 based on the recommendations of Ebenezer Farrand. By the time the shipyard had built the 4 ironclads eventually produced in Selma slips Farrand was long gone to Mobile where he succeeded Franklin Buchanan as flotilla commander following the Battle of Mobile Bay in August 1864. Selma also produced a very cleverly designed submarine with both steam and hand crank propulsion. This was accomplished by a civilian named Halligan. The Saint Patrick saw service in Mobile Bay in 1865.
The story of the Navy Gun Foundry and Ordnance Works is set forth in a 10 page article in the current issue of “The Artilleryman Magazine”. As a military facility beginning in February 1863, under the supervision of Catesby ap R. Jones (yes, Hampton Roads & the ironclads Jones) in June 1863, Selma produced and shipped 79 large siege, seacoast and naval guns during the 21 months the gun foundry operated – about 1 per week. These guns were acclaimed as being the best of their class made anywhere in the world.
The railroads in Selma along with the extensive river traffic served as vital arteries of support both in moving troops and materials throughout the war. The Military Depot there allowed for needed supplies to be sent south or west to the points of need within a few days. The story goes on and on, but by now you get the picture.
I have just gone back and read the latest postings by Mike and Steve and I would advise Mike (and everyone else) to pay close attention to what Steve is telling you. No, the arsenal in Selma didn’t operate a foundry for casting field caliber (or larger for that matter) projectiles. There were, however, numerous PRIVATE business concerns doing so and submitting their products to the Army for approval and payment. On the subject of Col. White. He was a difficult and very one sided person to deal with. Jones, Brooke and everyone else who dealt with him found him difficult to the point of being obstructive to the war effort. He was eventually (November 1864?) removed from command for such reasons – by his army superiors. I also believe that if you dig deep enough into the history of Mr. George Peacock (CNGFOW furnace master) you will find that he held a number of patents for casting shells. A detailed study would be appropriate. To my knowledge the CNGFOW never cast any projectiles smaller than VI.4” or 32lbr.
Lastly, of all the correspondence of that war that I have seen there are so very many that are flawed as to content, conclusions, fulfillment of intentions, etc. It would behoove all of us to recognize that a conclusion by one man doesn’t guarantee accuracy. I point to Maj. George Rains’ opinion that Selma was not a good location for a naval gun foundry hence his rapid departure following his assignment as the initial commandant.
I have both seen and handled hundreds upon hundreds of Selma made and/or recovered artifacts. Enough so to understand that those who have not taken the time to acquaint themselves with the FACTUAL history of that place will likely fail to ever understand what really happened there.
Bottom line, not everything meaningful in that war happened east of the Chattahoochee River. That war was fought in the east and lost in the Trans-Chattahoochee.
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eye opening accounts from several esteemed sources. Thanks for making me aware of contributions from other places I never thought about. All areas did their part to contribute to the war effort but not much is known unless you really dig into it. Thanks for adding to the data base guys
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Selma Hunter, thanks for that highly informative reply. You packed a great deal of relevant information into a few paragraphs. And who would know better than the guy who wrote a book about Selma. By the way. can I buy a copy directly from you. If not, I can probably find a copy on the internet.
I had already found Churchill's correspondence and invoices in the Citizens File. Are more available anywhere else? Were any other foundries contracted directly by the Army's Arsenal at Selma to produce field-caliber shells? What about the Selma Iron Works? Is there a record of Selma sending shells to Virginia? If this is covered in your book, just tell me and I'll wait until I get a copy.
My primary interest here involves figuring out who made the copper saboted (and all others that can be identified) shells (primarily 3 inch Reads and 10 & 20 pounder Read-Parrotts) dug in Virginia in sites beginning with Chancellorsville, Gettysburg, and on thru the final battles at Petersburg. They are not common, but among the tens of thousands found in the last 50 years, a few distinct patterns with copper sabots keep showing up. Many came from the Augusta Arsenal which sent many, and possibly a majority, of their Reads and Read-Parrotts to Virginia in 1863 and early 1864. I am getting close to singling those patterns out. But there are others, like the 20 pdr. Read-Parrotts shown below, that I suspect came from Churchill & Co. It has a sleek shape with an oblong nose and no lathe key. Its thick copper sabot may not have been pre-rifled but still the malleable metal took the 5 grooves quite well. It has a sturdy "wafer" style iron base knob. I have photographed identical examples dug by friends at Brandy Station (pre-rifled by a chisel in the field) and Gettysburg. The example pictured below was one of several dug at June 1864 Cold Harbor (this one by Gary Williams). My research indicates all copper saboted Read-Parrotts came from Deep South foundries. The invoices suggest Churchill & Co. produced several thousand of these and yet there were few 20 pounder Parrott guns in that region. I don't think the Army of Tenn. had any until the Atlanta Campaign. I don't know about Mobile and the other fortifications.
One final clue - look at the size and shape of the copper fuze plug. It has a thin head with two tiny spanner holes very close to the central opening. Its diameter is 1 1/2 inches instead of the usual 1 1/4 inch of the standard fuze plugs. I have seen a couple of others with this oversized fuze plug. I'm hoping somebody out there knows something about these plugs that will connect it with Churchill or Selma. One factor that may be relevant is that Churchill sent many of its projectiles to Selma "unfinished." In that case, Selma would have turned and tapped them, and acquired or made the fuze plugs. Or perhaps these extra large plugs were provided by the adjacent Naval Works as I suspect they were intended for large caliber shells.
Woodenhead
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Here are the photos accompanying the previous post. The Churchill & Co. invoice is one of many specifically mentioning the "copper sabots" on their 10, 20 & 30 pounder Parrotts. The 20 pounder from Cold Harbor, pictured below, is one of two patterns found in VA sites dating 1963-64.
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Briefly,
My recollection is that they (Churchill) charged $0.35 for threading a Bormann fuze hole and $0.05 for threading the underplug hole. I have that one in my loose-leaf files somewhere.
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While located in Mississippi, Churchill & Co. sent thousands of field and large caliber shells to the Columbus Arsenal in "unfinished" condition. Like Adolphus Rahm in Virginia, they also delivered finished shells. See invoices below. After relocating to Alabama in mid-1862, it appears they finished most or all of their projectiles, bored and threaded fuze holes and even inserted many of the brass underplugs in their Bormann-fuzed 6 and 12 pounders. However, its clear from their production records preserved in the Citizens File that they sent their shells to Selma without fuzes. Although the Army's Selma Arsenal had no large iron foundry, they could and probably did make Bormann fuzes and copper fuze plugs. If necessary, I suspect they could easily get extras from the adjacent Naval Works.
So, that brings us back to the 20 pounder Read-Parrotts (and some 10 pounders) found in VA with these distinctive oversized fuze plugs. I believe they are a style found in large caliber CS Navy shells. If so, then it reinforces the likelihood that Churchill made the numerous shells with those fuzes dug in both 1863 & 1864 sites in VA. It should be noted that most of their copper-saboted pattern have the standard CS copper fuze plugs with approx. 1 1/4 inch diameter flanges. Churchill's bi-weekly reports for 1863-64 (many, but fewer than half, survive) show the largest production level of 20 pounders of any Deep South foundry. More than 500 were made during many two-week periods. The Army of Tenn. had no 20 pounders until the Atlanta Campaign. At that time, Macon began casting and delivering 20 pounder ammunition to the army. Earlier, Longstreet had two while fighting around Chattanooga and Knoxville. Both blew up. Maybe there were a few of those guns at Mobile or one of the other fortified positions but I haven't noticed that in any of the records. The only other Deep South arsenal casting sizable quantities of 20 pounders during the 1863-64 period was Augusta and the shipment to VA of many (possibly the majority) of those is well documented. Theirs is the second common pattern found from Gettysburg to Cold Harbor.
My point here is that I am finding it possible by comparing the extensive written records with the evidence from the ground to identify most field caliber ( and many of the heavy) as to who made them and when. In Virginia, we could label almost any of the iron-saboted Read-Parrotts and 3 inch Read shells "Richmond Arsenal" shells. The Arsenal contracted for them, armed them and issued them to the field artillery. But there are distinctive differences from one foundry to another. In many cases it is possible to identify those made by particular firms based upon what we can learn from studying their correspondence and invoices - and then comparing that to what the earth has yielded. For example, we know that major player Samson & Pae finished all their projectiles and made their own fuzes. By contrast, Adolphus Rahm turned in thousands of unfinished shells to the Richmond Arsenal. Richmond subcontracted the finishing and fuzing to 3rd parties. One particular firm, identified in the Citizens File records, billed for threading the fuze holes and, with most of the 3 inch Reads and 10 pdr. Read-Parrotts turned over to them between Dec. 1862 and April 1863, they billed extra for boring the side holes for case-shot addition. Many, but not all, of those had been cast by Rahm. They supplied approximately 20,000 copper fuze plugs during that period. Those plugs all resemble each other. The same shop handled the re-fuzing of the 3 inch Dyers salvaged from Fredericksburg and billed for the side-holes in about 2/3 of them. No Samson & Pae projectiles had side holes. I believe some of the latter's were filled with case shot but the highly respected foundry had a way of loading them thru the fuze hole.
Really, I'm not trying to give you guys headaches. This is just the tip of the iceburg of what can be learned by comparing archival records with evidence from the ground. It is exciting! The search for answers about the origins of Virginia shells has led me to the dark waters of Selma. Let's continue.
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Woodenhead,
I think I can get my hands on one more copy of my book but won't know for several days. Hang tight. Sure do like the C. B. Churchill documents. I do not have any of the MS docs. Also, while some early correspondence refers to a laboratory associated with the CNGFOW there is scant if any documentation indicating that a lab was ever established.
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Just super information. Thank you Steve, Mike and Bill for sharing. A treasure trove of information. Thank you for your passion for our hobby and your willingness to share what you've learned with the rest of us.
I found a reference to at least 1 20-lber Parrott gun at Ft Wade in the defenses at Grand Gulf, MS. There was a large cache of 20-lber smooth sided Reads found there that are distinctive with their sides rebated (shallow and about 1" tall) with fairly thick copper sabot and deep lathe hole on a flat bottom . Most (or all), as is mine, are wood fused but I'm pretty sure I've seen one or more copper fused examples. But when I look at my 1990 picture I took at the museum I only see wood fused shells; no copper fused. Perhaps someone here has a copper fused example and can provide the fuse diameter. The D&G book doesn't mention a copper fuse so perhaps not.
Back to Steve's original posting, I'm going to find one of those cameras for my use. Sure looks like a great tool. I have frequently thought "If I could only look inside...".
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Woodenhead,
I have located a copy of my book that is available. It will take a day or two so keep in touch. Fella that has it is having his house repainted and it is upside down this week.
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carl, im pretty sure you can find one of those cameras on amazon, wish or geek. if not I have seen advertising for them on face book as well
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Selma Hunter, I look forward to your book. When I checked out the G.G. museum's website, I found this photo showing a stack of 20 pounder Read-Parrotts recovered when they excavated the fort's ammo dump. How in the name of panty lines did Tom Dickey and friends miss them? One or two look like the rebated body style you have in your collection, Carl, while the rest appear similar to the smooth-sided 20 pounder with the big fuze plug I showed earlier in this thread. I know the resolution of the picture is not the best but they do seem to have similar elongated noses with no raised lathe keys. The copper sabots also appear similar - cast brass with deep, flat iron base knobs.
The battle records confirm the presence of several 10 and 20 pounders at Grand Gulf. I think they had a single 30 pounder Parrott. Churchill & Co. was also making this large caliber with copper sabots at this time. I believe they are the legendary "Grand Gulf 30 Pounders." Churchill must have rushed the production of these copper-saboted shells because they got no iron from the CS govt. until late February 1863. That may explain the wood fuze plugs. Nonetheless, their surviving invoices show large production levels that would have easily allowed them to deliver more than 500 to 1,000 of these shells to the Mississippi River forts in time for the April 29, 1863, battle. I realize that bunches of CS Parrott shells probably came from other foundries. In fact, Augusta's production and delivery of 20 pounders (and other calibers) to the defenses of the Vicksburg theater is well documented. Most of Augusta's went to the Army of Northern Virginia, however, and this style was not theirs.
Pictured below are two CS 20 pounder Read-Parrotts dug in Virginia that have matching rebated bodies and thick cast copper sabots. The first was found by Harry Ridgeway around Winchester. The second by Mac Mason in the Richmond/Petersburg arena. This rebated version far less common. These, and the numerous similar copper-saboted 20 pounders with smooth bearing surfaces that have been dug in VA, are what has led me to Selma and Churchill. I think they came from the same Deep South foundry and no one was making more of this style than Churchill. I was hoping the 1 1/2 inch diameter fuze heads on some of them would help with their identification. It may yet. It looks like both versions are included in the display case from the Grand Gulf Museum and I'm hoping we can tie one or both styles to Churchill.
Woodenhead
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I wonder if this 20lber frag can add to the discussion. This was recovered from Cold Harbor in the 1970's. The base is a full 2" thick with an inside flat bottom. The casting is somewhat off center with the thickest wall being about .680" and the thin side about .370".
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another view
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You have the base of a 20 pounder Read-Parrott cast in Richmond by Samson & Pae. It base and sabot are identical to a number of marked 20 pdrs. made by S & P. One is pictured below and I have 3 views of another dug at Cold Harbor by Mac Mason stamped with their letter "H". A few 10 pdr. Parrotts stamped with the identical "H" were also marked "S & P" on the bearing surface. The raised square air vent on a low convex base knob is a feature commonly seen on S & P's 10 and 20 pounder Read-Parrotts. Sometimes the impression is perfect. Often it is sloppy or the pour was stopped before it filled out the square shape. I haven't noted this feature on anyone else's shells. It served no particular purpose other than representing their moulder's technique for setting up the pour. Its wrought iron sabot was struck in a die made by Samson & Pae using hammered iron which explains its uneven thickness. Good quality rolled iron was not available from the nearby Tredegar Iron Works. There was simmering hostility because Tredegar was constantly trying to lure away S & P's skilled craftsmen - many reportedly trained in Europe.
Samson & Pae was a primary source of 20 pdr Read-Parrotts supplied to the Army of No. VA from late 1862 thru mid-1864. Note their December 1863 invoice below reporting the production of 1140 - 20 pdr. Parrott shells. The copper fuze in the example below should limit production prior to May 1864 when wood fuze replacements were prescribed by the Richmond Arsenal. A few months later, Col. Broun ordered them to be made shorter to limit their tendency to tumble. Just above the Parrott listing on the invoice is "142 - 12 pdr. Blakely shells." These were the smooth-sided shells with copper sabots and raised lathe keys by the fuze hole I pictured in a recent posting. Only Samson & Pae made this caliber in VA. A couple of rows down is "132 - 3 inch Navy Parrotts." It appears that only Samson & Pae made these slightly larger Parrott shells for the CS Army in VA. The banded guns had been made for the Navy's fleet of small gunboats. A handful were borrowed by the Army in late 1862 and kept in service.
Woodenhead
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Great info...thank you!
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This type of shell is what started this whole discussion. This 20lb base frag was recovered at Peachtree Creek, Atlanta. Trying to find out what CS artillery battery fired these 20lbers. Amazing to me that the casting is so off center.
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You have the base of a 20 pounder Read-Parrott made by Augusta during the spring of 1864. Only Augusta had special permission from Richmond (documented in March 1863) to employ segmented interiors. The concept was probably derived from the imported Britten ammunition which was highly regarded. Except for their 10 pdr Parrott (and maybe their 2.5 inch Reads and 2.25 inch Mullanes), Augusta cast all of their field caliber ammunition with these shaped interior ridges. That includes Whitworths dug at Banks Ford and Gettysburg, Col. Beimeck's 3.5 inch CS copies of the Britten, all of the smooth-sided 3.5 inch Reads made by Augusta for the Blakely Rifle, and the limited quantities of variant 3.3, 3.67 and 3.8 inch Reads they made. I'm probably missing a few but it definitely includes their 3 inch Reads and Brouns which is where this conversation began with Steve Phillips' Selma shell. The point I wanted to make is that a segmented interior means Augusta made it. This is not so much my expert opinion as it is a fact clearly stated in the contemporary documents now readily available on the internet. I am far from the most knowledgeable about everything done at Selma, but I do know that hours before the city fell, the contents of Augusta's store house arrived at Selma for safe keeping. I don't believe that was understood when Tom and Pete wrote The Book.
Additional evidence is the sabot. Rains and Girardey were constantly working on improving the sabots of all field caliber Rifle ammunition during the winter of 1863-64. They conducted extensive field trials and published the findings of a Board of Artillery Officers in response to a flurry of complaints about their failure rate. This especially applied to the 10 and 20 pounder Read-Parrotts which tumbled much too frequently. What they came up with was the high-band copper sabot you have on your 20 pounder fragment. Note its remarkable similarity to the original Read sabots like those made in Mississippi, Alabama, and Tennessee during 1862. Dr. Read's work was ignored by the Richmond authorities and the inventor withdrew from active duty when the terrible Mullane with its Tennessee sabot was adopted as the official regulation round for all calibers in early 1862. It wasn't until the winter of 1863-64 that Augusta finally recognized the critical importance of a high-band sabot to capture the lateral pressure of the propellant charge to force it into the cannon's grooves. One important difference, however, Augusta's improved sabots were constructed of rigid cast copper, not rolled copper as Dr. Read intended. Hence, Augusta had to carefully machine their sabots to an even thickness while the original Reads were die-struck allowing greater tensil strength and flexibility. In one of his letters, Col. Rains mentions adding three holes (as seen on the winter 1863-64 Augusta sabot below) to secure their sabots. The original field-caliber Read's copper cups had only two holes. Some of them had no holes or slots extending from the center hole. What I'm describing here is one of the great tragedies of Confederate ordnance production. Dr. Read made a determined effort to outfit all of the South's foundries with the best and most modern projectiles but his work was largely ignored by the Ordnance Bureau. Battle opportunities on land and sea were lost on account of this foolish oversight.
Below is an excavated 3 inch Broun shell and a matching fragment alongside. This was Augusta's altered design they came up with after receiving official drawings for the Virginia Broun shell from the Richmond Arsenal in early 1864. The smooth fuze hole made for a wood fuze plug dates production from May 1864 or later. By contrast, Steve Phillips 3 inch Broun is threaded dating it from the start of the year. These Deep South pieces were photo'ed by Charlie Harris. The second image is an intact (copper sabot missing) 3 inch Broun shell from the Richmond/Petersburg area. They are especially rare because Augusta never made a lot of them. The third photo shows the improved Augusta cast-in cup sabot from early 1864. Note how well its evenly machined high-band bearing surface took the rifling grooves. The extra deep groove around the top of the bearing surface was a feature only seen on Augusta's sabots. I strongly suspect it was intended for tying on the cartridge bag. Since early 1863, Augusta was the only arsenal that regularly fixed its field caliber Rifle ammunition. "Fixed" was specifically mentioned in correspondence and on some of their invoices. If not the case, then it should be a lubrication groove. That was an oft-stated concern of theirs. No where from Richmond to the Deep South have I found any mention of anti-chipping provisions. Yes, they were concerned about the tendency to chip, known as "spalling", but given the quality of their iron, they felt helpless to do anything about it.
Woodenhead
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Woodenhead I hate to say this but you are just wrong. The segmented projectiles were made at Selma. I have several unfinished and they were not shipped from Georgia. Selma was the big one other than Richmond. The iron mostly came from Alabama iron works and was sent to Selma and around Selma to be made into the finished products.
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Steve, allow me to repeat the words of Selma Hunter: No, the [Army] arsenal in Selma didn't operate a foundry for casting field caliber projectiles (or the larger for that matter) projectiles. All of the original documents I've found confirm this statement. Re-read Dean Thomas's chapter on Selma in Vol III of Confederate Arsenals, Laboratories, and Ordnance Depots. They did small castings like bullets and Bormann fuses, but no shells. They did finish, arm and issue thousands from other arsenals and private contractors, but they did not make them on-site. The thousands found and destroyed by the Yankees at the end of the war had been produced by the Naval Ordnance Works and threatened arsenals and depots that sent them to Selma for safekeeping. I found a letter describing the journey of the stores and equipment of Augusta arriving at Selma days before its surrender. That is probably where your "Selma Read" originated. Selma made no segmented shells. Only Augusta did and they made very few in 1864 which helps explain their rarity. Shortly before Gen. Forrest received the two 3 inch Rifles that fired many of those segmented Broun shells, Augusta sent two 2.25 inch Mountain Rifles to him along with the little Mullane shells also made by Augusta. Although they never arrived, the shipment is documented. I haven't found the proof that Augusta sent its segmented 3 inch ammo to Forrest because the trail of invoices and correspondence pretty much goes dark after the summer of 1864.
Despite how previous books label your 3 inch "Selma Read," it is clearly a Broun shell. In early 1864, drawings of this new pattern were sent to all of the producing arsenals by W. Leroy Broun's Richmond Arsenal. Its single wide bourrelet and especially the distinctive cast-on high-band sabot can be nothing but a "Broun."
Document no. 1 is a typical Selma invoice dated August 15, 1862, listing items sent to Chattanooga. I have downloaded about 50 similar documents. No evidence in any of shell production. Many of the items were contracted from the nearby shops and ironworks. It appears that the only one making shells for Selma was Churchill & Co.
Document no. 2 is the only evidence I found that Selma might have made some field caliber ammunition. It is a March 14, 1864, report of experiments at Macon with wooden fuzes replacing copper fuze plugs in shells. A directive had come from Richmond that this change was impending. The second grouping of 10 pdr. Parrotts (nos. 4 - 7) lists "Selma Arsenal" under "Where & By Whom Made." This is the only suggestion I've found of actual shell production by the Arsenal. However, at this time Churchill was delivering more than 500 - 10 pounders to Selma every month for arming and issuing.
Document no. 3 is packed with great information about the state of Deep South shell production in early 1864. Dated Feb. 12, 1864, it is a letter from Augusta's commander Col Rains to Maj. Mallet, Superintendent of CS Laboratories at Macon. These two men were perhaps the top two ordnance experts in the Confederacy. The letter primarily discusses problems with the 10 pdr. Read-Parrott ammunition which had performed so poorly in the recent loses at Chattanooga and Knoxville. It begins with the following declaration by Rains critical to our understanding of the segmented shells. I believe I neglected to state..., that all the Rifle and field Battery shells made at this Arsenal [Augusta] for nearly one year have been polygonal or ribbed on the interior with the single exception of the 10 Pdr. Parrott. The polygonal core was formally adopted by Richmond and prescribed for all arsenals. The "ribbed" or star cavity was never adopted as part of an official pattern. All the evidence supports my contention that only Augusta made these.
Although not relevant to our Selma Read discussion, an additional observation by Col. Rains is worth noting: From the experiments at the Arsenal with this shell [10 pdr. Parrott], a large proportion failed to go end foremost or in other words turned over in their flight notwithstanding that on recovery the cups or saucers were found perfectly rifled thus ensuring the rifling motion. Rains concluded that the shells were too long. This observation helps explain why the length of the Virginia 3 inch Brouns was reduced in early 1864 and some of the foundries shortened the length of their 10 pdr. Parrotts from mid-1864 until the end of the war. Note that Rains reports turning down some of his 3 inch shells to 2.9 inch and firing them from Parrott Rifles with good effect.
Woodenhead
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That is not a real picture of Selma. Selma was not a just a warehouse. If you will just think of where the raw iron ore came from and the difficulty of getting it to Georgia you can see why Selma was second only to Tredegar in Richmond and by 1864 was the main producer of ordnance for the Confederacy. Selma area had over 10,000 workers producing for the Confederacy. Alabama produced more iron ore than all the other states combined and most of that was within 50 miles of Selma. The railroad was never complete between Selma and Georgia. Different gauge tracks and part of it was a wagon road. Selma made four or five ships and one or more submarines. It along with Tredegar made the biggest and strongest guns. CS forces and employees had been destroying or shipping out munitions for about a week before the Yankees got to Selma and after the surrender the Yankees continued the destruction and destroyed another 60,000 artillery projectiles and 2,000,000 small arm ammunition. Augusta mostly made powder along with some other products but it never compared to Selma. Bill Lockridge should tell more about Selma.
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Mike,
After weighing your latest post and some of the conclusions therein I have to offer my thoughts on your considered opinion. You are a recognized expert on many things related to this war and you have certainly been working at it far longer than I have. However, I know of no other person who has put the time and effort into a careful study of Selma as have I for the past 13 years. And these last 13 years have been every day, all day. Not classroom hours or incidental studies. Along the way I have also had an opportunity to study other topics although most of those (i.e. naval affairs at Hampton Roads, Mobile Bay, ironclads, etc.) connect to Selma in one way or another hence my interest. The research has introduced me to many new friends and serious researchers as well. When I began this study it was my misinformed opinion that all Selma records had been destroyed explaining why the story of Selma was largely told from oral history, family letters and incidental records from oblique sources. Then I heard about a college paper by Mr. Earnest B. Johnson, Jr. formerly of Selma. Having found him after some searching he provided the first key to the first door opened for my work. All Selma records had NOT been lost when the city was sacked during Wilson's vengeance raid although almost all local records had been destroyed. The papers of the Naval Gun Foundry & Ordnance Works and the Selma Arsenal survived in part because they were GOVERNMENT offices. Letter books, financial records and some other correspondence survived as there were duplicate copies of many if not most of these documents elsewhere. Private property and accompanying records were destroyed when the yankees burned the town. Columbiana, Alabama, is located about 65 miles north of Selma by modern road routes. The travel distance in 1865 would have been closer to 80 miles due to the layout of the Alabama & Tennessee Rivers Rail Road which served as the primary link between Selma and C. B. Churchill, Co. then located in Columbiana. Most of the smaller furnaces located up the line produced raw pig iron which was sold to manufacturers in Selma, Columbus, Georgia, Atlanta, etc. The C. B. Churchill Company was a highly capable manufacturer whose product is well and widely recognized from their previous activities in Natchez, and Corinth, Mississippi. The fact that the man who was arguably the best furnace master in North America at the time worked for them speaks volumes about the firm. George Peacock, because of his reputation, had been hired away from the Churchill firm shortly after Catesby Jones took over the operation of the NGF&OW in Selma. Jones and the Navy agreed to pay Peacock 1/3 again more than Jones himself was being paid to command the facility. So it is clear to history that the Churchill firm was both highly capable in terms of finished product AND 3 to 4 days march removed from the sacking of Selma when Wilson arrived (Upton’s cavalry did destroy the facilities of the Churchill company on or about the 30th).
Contrary to the official versions of events, the yankee soldiers had been teased for many months with the promise of Selma as a prize ever since Grant and the army had agreed to the creation of Wilson’s cavalry unit. During their entire time camped near Waterloo/Gravelly Springs waiting for suitable circumstances (weather, supplies, etc.) Wilson had promised Selma as the reward for their patience. After all, the yankees had been frustrated in their failure to capture Selma since it had become such a huge thorn in their backsides since early in 1862. So the stage was set for what actually did take place beginning April 2, 1865. The battle was short but sharp and all unfiltered accounts tell of a scene similar to the sacking of Atlanta. Soldiers, in many cases drunk on stolen whisky, when loosed on the town set fires, despoiled homes and stores, killed all animals and livestock, spoiled food stocks, abused women and continued to do so for at least three days until the pleas of locals finally caused Wilson to rein in his unruly mob – to a degree. Now in this process it is clear from the unofficial and the OFFICIAL records that the troops destroyed all local industrial activities as such were deemed to be “of military value”. These places of business were in Selma, not in a place 3 or 4 days away (Wilson reports that his troops averaged 18.75 miles per day during his raid). Other than some financial records from the Army Ordnance records there was little left to record the business activities of these individual facilities.
The bottom line is that while the town of Selma itself was home to at least 7 individual foundries and machine shops there were at least another half dozen furnaces north of town also producing iron and product for the Selma shops. Now, in my humble opinion, it is difficult to construct any concept of Selma and her role in the production of munitions that doesn’t include the production of massive quantities of artillery ammunition (Winslow reports over 66,000 rounds destroyed) being produced there. Add to this the archeological evidence resulting from the recovery of thousands of these rounds from the river there since at least as far back as 1959, it is obvious that there is much that happened there that has not yet or may never be fully recognized.
Now, to address the idea that Selma did not or could not manufacture segmented shells I think it is worth noting that of the total of 15-18 of the 3.67” segmented “Broun” shells known to exist were found in Selma (I could throw a rock to within 50 feet of the recovery location) it is difficult for me to understand why such projectiles would have been sent to Selma from elsewhere in such limited quantities. Field recoveries do not lead one to believe that these projectiles were ever widely distributed. On the other hand, shipping such a small quantity for examination/copying is counter-intuitive as samples were routinely sent to Mallet in Macon for evaluation.
If one believes everything one reads then I would urge caution in some sources. There is a well and widely known book cataloging cannon of that war. In the passages about Selma, and in telcons with one of the authors, the Selma Naval Gun Foundry was said to be ineffective and in many ways a failure. I could not disagree more. The actual facts speak for themselves and it is no longer necessary to argue over the recognized superiority of the guns made there.
Lastly, one truth that I have discovered in the course of my work is that each time it appears that the sources of archival/archeological evidence on Selma have been exhausted something new appears. In 2012 it was my great pleasure to receive copies of another trove of the CSN ordnance files when a carton with six 2 1/2 “ three ring binders arrived from a fellow researcher. Were there duplicates of some of my files? Yes. But there were also documents such as the shop notes of Jones dating from before the war until well afterwards. These notes detailed skills and knowledge beyond what many would have considered possible for the time. That there are documents referencing segmented shells from Augusta or anywhere else does not preclude the manufacturing of similar projectiles in Selma - or elsewhere for that matter. It is my intention to continue my research focus on Selma and to advocate for facts – archival or archeological. In the meantime the evidence indicates that these segmented projectiles WERE made in Selma – perhaps not exclusively but nevertheless, some, at least, were made there.
Again, it is both dangerous to the writer and a disservice to history to assume facts. So, were segmented Broun shells made exclusively in Augusta? Given the skills and capabilities along with the recovery evidence from Selma, I doubt so.
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This has to rank easily, in my opinion, at the top of the most informative discussions on this forum. Differing opinions fuel discussion as we see here and a great deal of quality information is being shared as a result. Many thanks to all that have contributed and I look forward to hopefully learning more. I'm still trying to digest all this information and as my knowledge on this topic is rather shallow (although deeper thanks to this discussion) I don't have anything material to add. I do have a question though. With all the great amount of relics discovered at and around the Selma area including the river, have any projectile molds been found? Any fuse molds? In addition to a CS mold being a supremely rare and neat relic it would certainly provide some good data.
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Are there a great deal of relics still be found in Selma or has it slowed like most places. not to worry I do not plan on coming and looking, I was just curious.
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Carl, I think the pattern for shells would be made of wood and the actual mold would be sand.
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still waiting on Steve to "turn loose" some of those bayonets. never seen unfinished ones except the ones he has, they are very interesting to study for the construction, I am unsure when the sockets were cast and turned vs applied, but must have been just pre CW
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lwion,
There are others around - in some quantity as well. Quite a few variants.
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I should gather all the unfinished items that I have found in my 4000 dives at Selma. That would be at least 10,000 dives if we can include my sons and the other divers that I took with me. Luckily I had learned how to preserve iron so the relics that I preserved for our group of divers have survived. There were several other early divers that found some iron relics but they let them fall apart and only photos are left. The written records from Selma are not any where near complete and that is why the iron relics must speak for themselves. Selma was totally destroyed in Wilson's Raid and papers didn't survive. Augusta was never destroyed and records did survive. I have unfinished, bayonets, swords,fuzes, lockplates, spur parts, CS belt buckles, horse bits, rifle hammers and many other castings. Maybe I will do an article for one of the magazines myself so I can let Selma tell her own story and not be confused by the written
" truth". The important thing to remember about why Selma and surrounding areas of central Alabama is so important is that this is where the iron was made. By the last few years of the war Alabama produced more iron than all other CS states combined and there was no good way to send this iron east. Selma was the protected area whereas Mississippi, Georgia and Tennessee where threatened or occupied by yankees. Why would Alabama send iron to other areas when Selma could do it all and be protected.
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This has truly been an interesting discussion. Not sure I have seen a thread go to 4 pages!