Bullet and Shell Civil War Projectiles Forum
Relic Discussion => Artillery => Topic started by: speedenforcer on February 18, 2017, 08:27:12 PM
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I don't know if this has been done on here before but how about this. Lets post pictures of our rarest shrapnel, or favorite piece of shrapnel. Obviously some shrapnel just looks like any shrapnel but we know some may be identified by there unique designs. I have a piece of side loader Read. I haven't been able to post pictures. Admin did it for me last time. I figure it out.
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Feel free to send me or Carl your pics Jay.
10" McIntyre repeating shell:
http://www.bulletandshell.com/Images/Shells/McIntyre_10in_01.jpg
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ok end of thread, that one cannot be topped. lol. :o
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I guess I'd have to offer this one as my rarest since when I posted it before no one could ID it:
http://bulletandshell.com/forum/index.php?topic=1003.msg7840#msg7840
It appears from the side view to be a CS Dahlgren but the base view shows a hole that would accommodate the Tennessee sabot with the cast on posts which is how nearly all large Mullane shells were made. But I've not been able to find any reference to one that didn't have the bourrelet all the way around; i.e. no gaps.
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Here is a Peavey shell frag. These are also repeating shells, but only 2, not three layers.
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this one ain't all that rare but I like the fact that the fuse unscrews from this culot of a 9" ball.
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this one is rare, found a very long time ago at Ft Fisher. It is from a triple fused 11" ball
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Hey, nice pieces! Thanks for showing them! I love frags. They get more comments from visitors than complete projectiles at my place.
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Dave, Your 11 inch { not 15 inch ], triple fuzed is one rare bird !! Cool !! I believe only one whole shell has ever been found.
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it was found at Ft Fisher also
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According to D&G '93, the one pictured in the book is the only surviving example...wonder who has it?? Here is the frag in my collection, also from Ft Fisher.
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Battle of White Hall 3" Dyer blown in half...I've never done anything to it.
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nice
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Wow, a perfect break. That's a good one.
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2 more "naturally" sectioned half shells:
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Groundbursts
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A couple landmines from Fort Blakely and a Brooke shell blown up by the bomb squad after being removed from Sam White's residence:
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A polygonal cavity Bormann fused 12pdr:
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>> Part of a spherical shell fired by the USS Monitor given to me
>> A frag from The Crater dug a long time ago when ok
>> A half 12pdr Boprmann ball in tree recovered by Lawrence' Christopher's brother-in-law at Resaca
>> Danner museum Schenkl frag (base is not original)
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A few more odds and ends, at least 3 of which found there way into Chuck Jones' book. The triple fused ball frag has all 3 threaded holes for fuses. I assume it is to a 15" ball.
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A 9" Dahlgren ball with a seacoast drive in fuse "naturally" split in half. The base of the Parrott shell frag has the hex headed nut which is believed to be for incendiary shells.
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hey Wilmington Mike, here is shrapnel from Whitehall, on the other side of the river up on the hill overlooking town, the Federals were located and at the point on the map where "privates Newsome and Lipscomb" were killed by the explosion of a confederate ball,I found this underplug and U S skin.They were right beside each other and the skin was real wadded up. It fit the underplug and even has thread marks . I thought it was a piece of a beer can and straightened it out. I was very surprised to see U S. I have always thought this was part of that ball and the skin came from one of those 2 guys boxplate or belt plate.
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Museum quality items guys. Wonderful items.
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Anyone have a sample of the US Navy "Craines" shell, was told its similar to the Pevery, in that its multi- layers and design for increased fragmentation i.e. shrapnel? Its referenced from the 1864 Ordnance instruction and still carried into 1876. It would seem its in the rare side if it fits the shrapnel family.
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wow some really nice shrapnel, me thinks emike is really into shrapnel.
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I will try to get a picture of my few pieces later, nothing special especially after seeing the eye candy that was posted already
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This is one of my favorite shell frags. It is the bottom half of a 20lb CS Blakely star frag shell. Provence is the battle of Peachtree Creek, Atlanta
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I think I still need Carl's help to post a picture :(
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One of my first and favorite shells.
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Another of my favorites. Almost complete.
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good stuff, I was glad this thread was revisited, I like frags a lot, this is one of my favorites, base to an 8" Parrott with sabot. I only find shells with no sabots, so a fragment with a sabot is nice
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Absolutely. There are some beautiful fragments and ground burst posted. I still don't know how to post but doesn't matter, only piece I have half way interesting is a piece of a side loader read with part of the side hole in it.
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This is the most interesting shrapnel I have photographed. It is the complete bottom and part of another from two exploded CS 3.8 inch James Rifle shells. They were found around Dumfries, VA, where artillery was part of Hampton's Legion when they camped north of town in late 1861. More likely, these two were among those fired by Fitz Lee's Rebel horse artillery when they surprise attacked and briefly captured Dumfries in December 1862. I photo'ed two additional pieces (not shown here) dug by Tucker Williams around the upper Rappahannock where Stonewall Jackson faced Gen. Pope's Army of Virginia at the start of the 2nd Manassas Campaign. Ordnance inventories confirm a single 3.8 inch James Rifle accompanied the artillery reserve during 2nd Manassas and Antietam.
Among the many Federal cannon captured on the July 21, 1861, battlefield of First Manassas were nine 3.8 inch James Rifles. Actually, they were prewar U.S. 6 pounders whose bronze bores had been "reamed & rifled" with 15 grooves to accommodate the patented James projectiles. Urgent requests for Richmond to supply suitable solid-shot to supplement the 900 captured James shells were heard almost immediately. Tredegar reported the casting of approximately 400 "James Rifle Shot" in August and September 1861 before production abruptly halted. Records confirm their delivery to the Southern forces gathered at Manassas and Centreville. No examples have been positively identified. I suspect Tredegar made close copies of the James projectiles.
Early in January 1862, Tredegar reported the production of 469 of these complementary "3.75 James Rifle Shell w/band" [Tredegar's Sales Book]. Added underneath was "the gun for the same being abolished." As seen on the copy of the page below, the quantity and price was crossed out. This was done at a later date. The Richmond ordnance establishment was clearly conflicted about the use of these guns. On June 23, 1862, Maj. Briscoe Baldwin instructed Tredegar: "Please recast the James Rifle into a 12 pounder Howitzer as soon as possible." In the wake of the drubbing suffered by the CS artillery on the open fields of Antietam, Gen. Lee pleaded for larger guns. The Ordnance Bureau responded with an October 31, 1862, directive to Tredegar to produce 2,000 James shells and 1,000 bolts according to a "sample," provided by ordnance officer W. N. Smith, "by which they are to be made." None were ever manufactured and "declined" was later penciled into the margin. As Tredegar was busy recasting the Army's bronze 6 pounder cannon into superior 12 pdr. Napoleons in early 1863, their Sales Book reported melting down three "Manassas James Rifles." Not known what happened to the remaining guns but there is evidence suggesting one or two were employed by the Army of North Carolina and Southern Virginia.
I don't see any reason to apply Archer's name to these shells. From his correspondence and newspaper interviews, the ex-Navy surgeon was somewhat egocentric and repeatedly called all of his well known projectiles - "Archers." He understood the value of taking credit for new designs because he had just patented, and expected to profit (25 cents each) from every example made in the South, Archer's percussion fuze. Its not likely his contributions would be overlooked because Dr. Archer ran Tredegar (along with John Tanner) while CEO J. A. Anderson was away commanding North Carolina troops in the field. So poorly did Archer and Tanner operate the Iron Works, however, that elements of the main CS Army fighting at Williamsburg threatened mutiny over the poor quality of the shells and cannon tubes. Both Robert E. Lee and Jeff Davis joined a chorus of pleas for the capable West Pointer, Gen. Anderson, to resign his commission after being wounded on the Peninsula and resume his leadership role at Tredegar. I suspect the real credit for these odd projectiles belonged to whomever was designing those other experimental shells (see Biemeck, Vol. III) made around the same time employing similar flanges or "fins."
Pictured Below: Along with the shrapnel, I show two of a handful of surviving 3.8 inch CS James shells. Both came from early 1862 Confederate positions around Centerville in Fairfax County, VA. The example retaining its lead sabot belonged to Tom Dickey. The other is currently in the collection of Tom Lilijenquist. A selection of a page from Tredegar's production records for January 1862 is shown at the bottom. These 469 James shells were also listed in their Sales Book. Other listings of note on that page are Archer's "332 - 4 pdr. Rifle Shells" intended for Virginia's re-rifled 3.35 inch guns. Below that are listed 348 - 6 pdr. Rifle shells" and "735 - 6 pdr. Rifle shot" - the well known 3 inch Archer shell and shot mass-produced by Tredegar until replaced by the Mullane shells in mid-February, 1862. Interestingly, at the bottom of the list are "23 - 4.2 inch Rifle shells" for the lone 30 pounder Parrott "Big Boy" also captured at Manassas and now (winter 1861-62) in service blockading the Potomac with the batteries at Evansport.
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You guys have really got some nice shrapnel. It appears that it is a collecting category in its self.
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Nice stuff. On a side note I didn't know Tom Liljenquist collected artillery, I thought he was exclusively images.
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My good friend and neighbor, Tom Lilijenquist, has a fine collection of artillery projectiles including many of the rarest known to man. All have been beautifully cleaned and about 1/3 to 1/4 of his total collection are seen at the bottom of the enclosed photo. He put the attractive relic board together as a convenient way to display his many artifacts to guests. Tom's shell collection is not huge, but very impressive for quality and rarity. He was an active shell collector for a relatively brief period 10 or 15 years ago, and is no longer buying as far as I know. Sorry I didn't take a group shot of the balance of his shells - its something you would all like to see.
W.H.
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Wow, what a beautiful and well thought out display. Wonderful!
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:o wow I love dug weapons.
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That is by far the most amazing relic board I have ever seen. You are correct, the quality of each relic is a 10/10 and the presentation is off the charts. No words can describe it. Thanks for sharing it. If I might ask how are the relics attached to the board?
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Here's his other board. I've had both of these pics for a few years, now. It's tough to appreciate what's there with the small picture requirements.
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:o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o The Bible, which I try to live by sais not to covet, but you guys are tempting me.
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I like the dug Savage and Colt revolvers, the variety of U.S. plates and the Burnside and Sharps carbines. FANTASTIC!!!!
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I need lotion and rags.... LOL Damn...
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It's Jackson Pollock gone Civil War!!! Cool!!
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ignoring the relics themselves, the display itself is a work of art. The vision to make it look as it does goes beyond my comprehension for a display, I'm in awe
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All,
I may be seeing things but it looks like there is a Hale Rocket body on the board. That would have to be one of the rarest "Artillery" projectiles on the planet. Help here?
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I believe that it is a Hale rocket, or at least it appears to be from the picture. There is so much great looking "eye candy" that it's hard to focus on one thing for long.
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Yes, sure is. As WoodenHead says, not a huge but impressive. There are some real gems there.
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Here are close-ups of some of my favorites from the Lilijenquist collection. They are all great specimens but I only photo'ed those I thought useful for Lee's Thunderbolts. The first is an imported lead-covered 3 inch Clay shell with copper fuze plug - part of a cache dug in a CS fort guarding High Bridge near Farmville, VA. Earlier accounts by E. P. Alexander that the English gun had exploded during its initial test firing were correct. However, Alexander was apparently unaware that the breech had been repaired by Samson & Pae. Records confirm the Clay Rifle was part of the armament at High Bridge. Shrapnel from these shells has been excavated at Bermuda Hundred.
Second is a fired 3.35 inch Archer shell from the downtown Manassas area (not the battlefield). This pattern was designed by Dr. Robert Archer in early 1861 for use by 50 of Virginia's old 4 pounder smoothbores Tredegar had been contracted by the General Assembly to "ream & rifle" in Jan. 1861. Because the understaffed Ironworks was busy with other pressing orders, the rifling process was delayed until Sept. 1861. At that time, the first of these stubby projectiles was cast, "One Box = 25 - 4 pounder Rifle shells at $1.00 each." [Same price as the 3 inch Archer shot & shell.] Sizable quantities were made every month until production ceased at the end of March 1862. Records confirm Tredegar produced a total of 5,380 of these rifled 4 pounder shells and 238 corresponding bolts. [No known examples today.] Note the 1 1/2 inch tall lead sabot has been driven hard against the nose, closing the wide lubrication groove as it was labeled by Dr. Archer in a letter to a customer. In my opinion, "expansion groove" would also be correct as it allowed room for the ring sabot to be driven forward on the tapered 'tail' thereby forcing it into the grooves. Archer's 3 inch projectiles had this groove as well. The presence of two narrow flame grooves helps date this shell's manufacture no earlier that Dec. 1861 when Tredegar added similar flame grooves to its 3 inch shells. In early Jan. 1862, the same grooves were included on the noses of its "winged" James shells like the example pictured earlier in this blog. I know this is a lot to swallow but one last thing. The tie-ring groove extending from the bottom all of these shells is the reason I state the design dates from early 1861. At that time, most of Virginia's field-caliber ammunition was "fixed." Rifled cannon were new and there was no general agreement on how the cartridge bags were to be handled. Proof of this can be seen on the bottom of many of the North's 3 inch Dyer shells where remnants of the tin straps remain. After the CS Ordnance Bureau assumed control of artillery ammunition in June 1861, separate cartridge bags became the rule in Virginia.
The last two photos below show two of the smallest and most unusual projectiles fired by the Army of Northern Virginia. These are CS-made Britten bolts fired by two 2.5 inch Blakely "Mountain Guns" imported from England in 1861. The lead cup sabot remaining on the first example bears the impression of six distinctive lands & grooves. The lathe dimple in the bottom and lines cut into the bearing surface indicate this was among the final "153 shot for steel gun" made in April 1862. It was found at Second Manassas. The other 2.5 inch CS Britten bolt from the Antietam retreat route has lost its sabot and was cast from a different mold pattern with no dimple or lathing. This probably places it among the first "189 Shot for Steel Rifle Gun" made by Samson & Pae in Nov. 1861 for $1.00 each. [Remember, there were no lathe dimples on any field projectiles prior to Feb or March 1862.] That was the cost of the 3 inch and 3.35 inch Archers. In early 1862, S & P charged $2.50 to make similar and much larger 3.5 inch Brittens for the CS Navy's "Steel Guns." A total of 397 bolts and 125 shells of this 2.5 inch pattern were made by Samson & Pae during late 1861 and early 1862. Examples of three different mold patterns are known for this bolt. Samson & Pae was the premier pattern-maker in Richmond. Late in 1862, the two diminutive Blakely guns were sent to the Army of Tenn. They remained in reserve until the 1864 North Georgia campaign. Several hundred 2.5 inch Read shells were made by the Augusta Arsenal early that year. The two imported steel guns accompanied the army on their fateful late 1864 trip to Nashville.
I'll be happy to share the documentation of the previous descriptions with anyone upon request. Lee's Thunderbolts will be footnoted.
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Beautiful and rare items indeed. Anyway, I still can't get over that display.
I just finished a 30 pound parrott ground burst that I have been messing with for over a year. I'll post an image later.
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This is a 3.67" sawyer case shot soft burst that I found at Port Hudson. That still retains all its parts including the case shot balls in asphalt matrix. It also has its combination fuse. Thought you guys might enjoy seeing it.
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Here's another two shells I dug at Port Hudson. One is a 20 lb Parrott which still retains some of the case shot balls and also has its time fuse adapter with the time fuse still in place. The other is a 12 lb soft burst Bormann ball which still has its fuse and all its case shot balls in a sulfur matrix.
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;) All the different and amazing shrapnel I may just have to start collecting that also. :)
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Next question. Are there any known fragments that are fused together in battle like the rare an highly coveted impact fused bullets. I know shrapnel more often than not is iron and therefore less likely to do so as lead bullets would but curious if anyone has heard of said specimens.
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has anyone ever saw or heard of someone having shrapnel from Fort Sumter. Of course it is out there but I haven't seen or heard of anyone having any.
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Jay, you asked about fused together shrapnel earlier. I just saw this post.
I have a 3.8 Hotchkiss from Gauley Bridge, WV that has a frag piece of another shell stuck in the lead sabot. Kinda neat - different
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:o Wow do you have a picture?
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to answer your question about Ft Sumter shrapnel, I don't personally know of anybody that has any, however my wife and I went over to Sumter when we first got married and I walked down on the beach at the edge of the marsh and picked up 2 fragments but she made me put them down. There were more and they are still there.
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wow when is the last time you went. Heck my wife would of been pulling lookout duty. Do you really think more is there. Wait that would be a felony to remove. Never mind. >:(
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A friend of mine found a couple large projectiles between the low and high tide mark there decades ago. This made them fair game back then but eventually he was told never to come back. He also told me that in addition to stones for the fort’s septic field, they used big Mullanes from the bunkers which are still in place for that!
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I would rather that no one here even make jokes about illegal digging. Projectile collecting is not the most popular of hobbies.
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If any one thinks I am the least bit serious about doing something illegal then they don't know me. Lighten up just a little man.
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No one here condones or encourages illegal activities. If I may have spurred that thought it was unintentional. David
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dive,
you did or said nothing wrong.
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Back on topic. Were there much shrapnel destroyed during the raw material drives during world war 1 and 2
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lot got picked up during the war to send back north to the smelter, quite a bit was recovered from Fort Fisher
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As one might guess I am thinking of adding a shrapnel section to my little museum (spare bedroom, or should I say corner of a small bedroom) so I am exploring that.
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going back and re reading this thread, the pictures of the relic boards that daveslem and woodenhead posted earlier is phenomenal. I love the dug weapons.
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Rick Armstrong, in Gore, Va., known on eBay as revwarcannonballs (and formerly known as The Gallant Pelham), who is a charter member of "The Biggest eBay Crooks Ever" had a genuine Fort Sumter cannonball, with written provenance to boot, for sale several years ago.
If you let him know that's what you're looking for, I'm sure he can rustle up another.
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Rick Armstrong, in Gore, Va., known on eBay as revwarcannonballs (and formerly known as The Gallant Pelham), who is a charter member of "The Biggest eBay Crooks Ever" had a genuine Fort Sumter cannonball, with written provenance to boot, for sale several years ago.
If you let him know that's what you're looking for, I'm sure he can rustle up another.
:( What a crook!
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Agreed, you want something from certain battlefield with written proof? Just ask him, he will bend over and pull it out of his ass
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::) yes you have to be careful these days. The collectors and dealers that have a true love of the hobby are some of the best people in the country, but when a buck can be made the leeches will slither in.
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Here is a struck shell with a canister ball stuck in the side.
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cool relic
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wow
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Very cool relic Mike!
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2nd post in this thread
10" McIntyre repeating shell:
http://www.bulletandshell.com/Images/Shells/McIntyre_10in_01.jpg
question. I have no knowledge of this shell, was there powder in each level of spheres? what made the outer and center detonate but not the inner core? how did the 2 that did detonate separate almost identical It is obvious detonation and not sawed.
I really like this shell.
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Wow!!! I never looked back at this thread since page 1. As I sit here iced in, I just went through the next 5 pages of some incredible relics. There are some truly incredible collections out there- big and small. I am now going to start cleaning some of my frags...what my wife calls "the rust collection".
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I know you love your wife, but advise her that it is blasphemy to call any relic, a rust collection. :o
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Ouch!
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Cool thread and some even cooler relics.
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My current (favorite) wife knew about my metal detecting fetish when we married 34 years ago. She means 'Rust Collection" in a nice way. Come to think of it, 2018 will be my 50th year of metal detecting!
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My loving bride had a room built in HER basement so that my rusty junk wouldn't mess up HER house and we have both been very happy about the subject ever since. Plus, the second floor isn't sagging anymore...
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:)
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you can't put 70 shells on the second floor????? ohoh
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It wasn't as much the number as the size of some of the offenders.
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70 is still a pretty large # no matter the size shell. I wish I had 70 shells. lol.
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Jay,
I can help make that happen if you would like!
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I wish, on a cops salary with a red head wife that likes to spend money, 6 year old and another in the oven, due in July. But I do plan on calling you soon about a reconstructed 12 pounder canister. If you have some. I heard you did.
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Seems like things have stalled a little in this web site. Ill try t kick start it.
What is some of you guys largest shrapnel?
I still haven't figured out how to post pictures. Do you have to have a separate photo hosting service?
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The biggest frag of mine is about 1/3 of a 13-inch mortar. i was walking into the Franklin Show with a crate on my shoulder going to my table and saw it sitting on another table. I liked it and was interested but the table owner was busy talking to another person so I thought I'd just finish my trip with the crate and come back and find out the details. I took about 3 or 4 steps and thought to myself "if you walk away and this is a good price it won't be here when you get back.". So I set my crate down, waited on the owner, found out it was a good price and bought it. It was one of those rare times I didn't let something get away. Glad I did as I really like it. I've had it at a couple shows and it gets lots of attention.
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Carl, you were smart getting it when you did, otherwise it would have been in my collection about 7 1/2 minutes later! ;)
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picture?
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Here ya go! Sorry but was too lazy to move it out and get a better view of it. It's not light. It sits between a 13-inch mortar from Memphis and an 11-inch ball from Charleston. Note the 100-lber Parrott with the rivet base just below it.
Now you post one!
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here are reconstructed haynes shells both 6 and 12 pounders. dug in kentucky. Also last year i dug an excelsior grenade
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good stuff
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Jim: Very nice and rare displays. Thanks for sharing.
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Killer stuff!
Great reconstruction!
Thanks!
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The title of this thread is "Rare shrapnel". I'm posting this as not as a shrapnel piece from a rare shell but rare from the perspective of how the shell fragmented. This is a short pattern 30-lber case shot shell that when it blew left this interesting fragment. The nose is intact and the base is intact and both are joined by a thin piece of what. It still has a complete sabot with great rifling and the nice white time fuse is still there. In the nose around the bottom of the fuse can be seen a few lead case shot balls. Traces of matrix is still evident on the iron in powder cavity. The 3rd (out of focus) image has a Williams Cleaner bullet in the powder cavity for perspective. Sorry the images aren't better. I got this as part of a collection I purchased. It was found in the Vicksburg area. It would clean up great but I tend to like the dug look on it.
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Ah, that's cool. I've seen a 6.4" parrott with a similar side blow out.
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One of the big boys done like that would really be cool.
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Fort Fisher museum has a really nice 6.4 Parrott long patter with the side blown out.
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Here is one, but from Charleston. The 3 Brookes are from the Spanish Fort, AL area.
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good stuff
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I agree very nice stuff. I am gonna start adding to my shrapnel collection. don't have anything rare except the sideloader read.
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Carl, Will you have any odd or semi rare shrapnel at Charleston?
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let me add, semi cheap? lol.
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Jay: That is a fur piece down the road so hard to say at this time but I suspect I will or at least I hope I do. Send me an email when we get closer to January and I'll see what I can do.
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Yes Sir.
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Thank you Sgt. Bryan Vickery for the Archer frag. Love it.
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Carl,
We are going to try to make Charleston this year. If you have a couple if interesting frags that you may want to sell
bring them to the show.
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Will do!
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jonpatterson your post Reply #29 on: July 02, 2017, 08:51:41 PM » is that shell published somewhere else or been sold recently? seems I seen it recently or one very similar which of course would be coincidental.
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And by the way just cant seem to get enough at looking at the nice frags every one has.
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speedenforcer - It is one of my earliest pieces. I picked it up on eBay in 2012 ($91.22) and as far as I know never published.
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ok just coincidence or maybe I just remember seeing it here but failing to remember it WAS her that I saw it. Getting old sux.