Bullet and Shell Civil War Projectiles Forum
Relic Discussion => Artillery => Topic started by: emike123 on December 18, 2013, 09:37:24 PM
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A few 12pdr and under of this popular projectile
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Do you consider the detachable nose 12 pound Whitworth shells a legitimate Civil War projectile?
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No, which is why I don't have one
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Redbob, no proof has surfaced that even a single "Detachable-nose" 12-pdr. Whitworth has ever been excavated in the US. Therefore, although some MIGHT have been manufactured in Britain before the end of the civil war, it seems none got used here during the war. That puts the detachable-nose Whitworth in the category of other "interesting" European artillery projectiles that didn't get across the Atlantic Ocean until after the war ended. They've turned up in non-excavated condition here because the armaments-dealer Francis Bannerman & Company (of New York) seems to have imported a lot of them when Britain's Ordnance Department declared them obsolete and sold them to armaments-dealers as military surplus. So, "knowledgeable" civil war artillery collectors (like Emike) have little to no interest in owning one.
I should mention, for anybody who doesn't already know... some of them have showed up on the collectors' market in somewhat-pitted condition because they sat out in the weather for decades around Bannerman's Island Arsenal warehouse -- but those are not battlefield-excavated ones.
Regards,
Pete
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Thanks for the information, there is also a picture of two Whitworth guns at Gettysburg with stacks of these shells next to them.
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Rebob and All,
If you are wondering what this shell looks like inside, the below drawing was made from an actual projectile in Jack Wells collection. I believe his specimen was a purchase.
Regards,
John
(http://i1168.photobucket.com/albums/r492/jbart252/12pdrWhitworthCaseShotParts.jpg) (http://s1168.photobucket.com/user/jbart252/media/12pdrWhitworthCaseShotParts.jpg.html)
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Some of these (12) Pdr,were recovered from the sunken Blockadw runner "Modern Greece" and are on displayn at Ft. Fisher. I'm sure I found a detachable Ogive back in 1949 or 1950.
Remember never say "Never? it will end up bighting you in the butt.Also there was a 6 Gun Btry. shipped from the UK to the USA with machinery for producinf Shoe<Shell,and Case Shor
Charles. J. Wells (Jack)
Sgt. Maj. USA. Ret.
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Thank you Jack. It is good to see you back on the Forum after your serious operation.
All the Best,
John
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To All Interested,
Taking Jack Wels tip about one of these being at Fort Fisher I emailed a copy of my drawing to Mr. Nathan Henry and below is his reply and photo:
" Hi John, Sure enough, the separation line is blatantly evident on the 12-pdr. we have in our showcase (see photo). I couldn’t see it on the one in wet storage but it is a bit more corroded. Electrolysis could make it evident. Thanks for bringing that attribute to my attention.
Nathan Henry
Assistant State Archaeologist and Conservator
Underwater Archaeology Branch
NC Office of State Archaeology
1528 Fort Fisher Blvd. South
Kure Beach, NC 28449
Phone: 910 458 9042
(http://i1168.photobucket.com/albums/r492/jbart252/WhitworthCase-3fromModernGreece.jpg) (http://s1168.photobucket.com/user/jbart252/media/WhitworthCase-3fromModernGreece.jpg.html)
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Interesting and welcome back Jack. More interesting that one may have actually been used here vs. "almost made it." Rack that brain of yours and tell us where you think you found the nose part.
The 6pdr at Fort Fisher is well documented. The 6pdr in my picture above is from there.
I am surprised nobody zinged me on the baby (3pdr) Whitworth shell because I don't think they were used here either. That one in my picture above came from the UK thanks to Bart's sleuthing.
Whitworths were used all over the globe because they were high quality. I saw several big ones in Chile at the Naval Museum in Valparaiso and others have come out of Europe. I saw a 3pdr Whitworth gun in both Argentina and Chile and one had an 1863 date on the trunion.
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Mike,
There was one box (10) Whitworth case shot and 75 Whitworth bolts recovered when the Modern Greece was salvaged. It is not known how many were salvaged by the C.S. after it sank. It is unlikely they would have only sent one box of of the case shot. Below are records kept by a recorder as the ship was salvaged, artillery ordnance only.
Regards,
John
(http://i1168.photobucket.com/albums/r492/jbart252/MG-58a.jpg) (http://s1168.photobucket.com/user/jbart252/media/MG-58a.jpg.html)
(http://i1168.photobucket.com/albums/r492/jbart252/MG-58-1.jpg) (http://s1168.photobucket.com/user/jbart252/media/MG-58-1.jpg.html)
(http://i1168.photobucket.com/albums/r492/jbart252/MG-49.jpg) (http://s1168.photobucket.com/user/jbart252/media/MG-49.jpg.html)
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Mike, Pete and All Interested,
I asked Mr. Henry about the C.S. salvage, his reply was:
"The Confederate goal was just to get as much stuff off the wreck as they could. Since it was stranded under the guns of Fort Fisher they were able to do this although they obviously didn't get everything. The big coup was the salvage of four 12-pdr. Whitworth Rifles. Two initially stayed at Fort Fisher. One was captured on the beach along with a Blakely rifled field piece while protecting another stranded blockade runner and they went to the navy prize yard, I think in 1864. Until then they served the Confederacy very well.
It seems like two of the 12-pdr. Whitworth rifles were used by DH Hill during the 1863 siege of Washington, NC which was at that point held by Union forces. I would have expected them to be using shells during the bombardment.
Anyway, I always assumed that much of the 12-pounder ammunition used was salvaged from the Modern Greece. Only 75 solid shot and 10 of the shell/case shot were recovered from the wreck in 1963. Ten of those solid shot are in the box that is in wet storage--it is obvious they are shot because the noses of the projectiles are exposed by the broken lid.
I just pulled the nose-ejecting case shot from our display. I hope to get it x-rayed up at our Queen Anne's Revenge lab at the beginning of next year.
Nathan Henry
Assistant State Archaeologist and Conservator Underwater Archaeology Branch NC Office of State Archaeology
1528 Fort Fisher Blvd. South
Kure Beach, NC 28449
Phone: 910 458 9042"
Regards,
John
Note: The Whitworth and Blakely projectiles were never adopted by the British Ordnance Department of the Crown and could not have been declared obsolete by it. They were the property of Whitworth and Blakely and when our ACW ended so ended the need for them.
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Gentlemen:
Thank you for taking the time and effort to answer my question about the Whitworth shells, your answers have been most helpful and informative. I think that I will keep them in my collection and be pleased to have them.
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Recreational divers hit the Modern Greece as well. I've seen various non artillery items over the years and have some in my collection. No telling what they got, though i've seen whitworth bolts from time to time. Most were never treated properly and are bondo babies. The plates for the Modern Greece whitworths recovered by the State have been in that book for 40 years. Surprised about the question and answer on the case shot.
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Good work Bart by contacting Mr. Henry. I don't him personally, but he is the goto person on stuff like this.
And, excellent memory Jack!
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Great thing about this forum. Tidbit of info here, tidbit there and all of a sudden we have some understanding. Doesn't always work but sometimes it does shed light with a large group and helps our overall understanding. Thanks.
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So ends the lesson..... :'(
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The lesson never ends. There is always something more to learn.
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Carl,
so with this documentation the collecting world will have to accept the Whitworth Case Shot as an authentic member of the ACW.
Regards,
John
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I don't agree, John. Until it is listed as battle field recovered, it is not ACW, in my view. There is still not enough evidence here.
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Nah man, I disagree, if it made it to the Confederate shore, it's ACW.
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So you don't consider the sunken blockade runner "Modern Greece" filled with ordnance and destined for the rebels a battlefield. How about all the shells from Fort Fisher lying on the ocean floor?? It is just as much a battlefield as any on land. We don't know how many of these shells were salvaged by the C.S. after it sunk.
What we do know is one box of 10 projectiles was recovered from its water grave and carried ashore, which is no different than digging one up on land. However, that being said, you are entitled to you opinion, and if you are correct in your assumptions, then I wasted my time gathered this documentation.
Lastly, please define battlefield!
Kind Regards,
John
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Very interesting discussion and whether they are American Civil War (ACW) relics and will probably be similar to politics, religion and a host of other things that will boil down to opinion.
It seems the detachable nose Whitworth shells on the Modern Greece were purchased by the Confederate government and thus owned by the CS government who was supporting one of the armies fighting the ACW. They were found on board a CS ship that made it to US/CS waters. They just didn't seem to make it to a cannon to be fired although Jack reports finding a nose piece but he didn't say if he found it on the ship or detecting on dry land somewhere else.
This is all very similar to a number of the shells found dumped in the river at Milledgeville, Ga. The bourreletted read for the rifled 12 pounder is only found in the river in Milledgeville. Yet, Jack Bell states in his book, "Provenance: Milledgeville, Georgia. No other recovery sites known." so it seems none were actually used to fight the war. But I don't know anyone who does not consider this a ACW shell and very much wants one in his collection. Perhaps it's because it was made in North America during the war.
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Concur, coast off Fort Fisher was very much a battlefield.
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Carl,
Jack Wells found the nose piece, not me, although there was intact projectile in my collection and shown in my book.
Regards,
John
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Maybe, opinions are based more on whether you have one in your collection than on actual evidence. Either way, this has been one of the most enjoyable and informative threads that I have seen.
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John,
I meant Jack but I guess my fingers had another mind of their own and typed John. I've corrected that and thanks for sharing. Where was the intact projectile in your book found?
Also, I hope you don't mind but I cropped your image down to just the Whitworth so it will be more easily seen by everyone. Unless you have a large monitor the Whitworth shell will be off the display to the right and if you didn't know to scroll over it likely wouldn't have been seen.
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Since I live here in Wilmington, I'll check with the locals and see what they have dug in the way of Whitworths. I need to call around and pass my holiday greetings on anyway.......
Not to poison the thread, but one fella found a stacked pile of 6 lb'ers once.....
And a lot of WW's were recovered off the Modern Greece by locals, I've owned quite a few bolts through the years
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I have one of these and when I bought it in 1989 from Bill Smith I was told it came from Gettysburg. It is not salt water contaminated. The number 56 is stamped near the nose and appears to be an original arsenal or manufacturing marking. I didn't find it myself so I can't be sure where it came from but I think it is from Gettysburg.
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Carl,
The one in my book came from the Smithsonian basement collection on loan to me. I know you typed it wrong but it gave me a chance to include the radiograph.
John
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Steve:
There is a picture of two Whitworth guns at the stone wall at Gettysburg and behind them are stacks of these shells.
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Is this the picture because I can't see that these are shells vs. bolts? I am not aware of any of the detachable nose Whitworths having been recovered at Gettysburg, but I know regular shells and bolts. As shown above, I could be wrong so that doesn't mean the detachable nose ones were not but I have not known of any.
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Rebob,
Are they shells or case shot bodies. Do they have the nose ejecting feature?
John
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I've never been able to get a clear enough view of them,but according to the Park Service; when the guns were moved to their present location (at the Peace Monument) the shells/bolts(?) were placed in storage.
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Carl has access to some huge picture files from the NPS and maybe he can get better shots. For now here are links to a couple bigger pictures, and I cannot see that they are shells, but its tough to be certain.
Also, worth noting that from the historical marker visible, these pictures are clearly post war so there is no guarantee, probably quite the contrary, the projectiles stacked near these guns have anything to do with the battle. The park stacked post war projectiles and even some reproduction (see D&G page 332) Whitworth projectiles near guns for display for many years before removing them because thieves were making off with them. In the case of some of the Hotchkisses that had been stacked near guns at Gettysburg, were later moved to a storage building and a lot were stolen -- those Hotchkiss shells are often represented as being from Gettysburg even though they were post war surplus just stacked at monuments for some time.
http://www.nps.gov/common/uploads/photogallery/ner/park/gett/F03FF8B0-155D-451F-67CD7C7EC31AC189/F03FF8B0-155D-451F-67CD7C7EC31AC189.jpg
http://www.itsallaboutfamily.com/j16/images/Places/USA/PA/Gettysburg/Battlefield-at-Gettysburg/20130660_006_West-Confederate-Avenue-showing-Whitworth-Guns_Gettysburg-PA.jpg
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Well, I couldn't find a high resolution image of the Whitworth gun at Gettysburg. I did find a number of them with the same resolution you provided and have attached below an enlarged snip of the photograph showing only the stack of Whitworth projectiles. I did find a very similar image from what looks to be the same time period of some Parrott rifles at Gettysburg. The second image below is the projectiles stacked near the cannon trail of one of the Parrott guns. I am still amazed at how good the resolution of the mid-1800's photography equipment was which is evident in this stack of shells. Note that the stack of projectiles seem to be a badly stylized example of a Parrott projectile. There is no evidence of the sabots; only recessed bottoms but they are obviously not Delafield shells. It appears they are each attached by a rod to the fuse area of the projectile opposite with the security strap going over the rods to hold all the projectiles in place. All the projectiles by the Whitworth cannon appear to me if I had to guess to be bolts but it's really quite hard to know from this image. More importantly since I feel sure the Parrott projectiles are park cast facsimiles there is no reason to believe they didn't do the same with the Whitworth projectiles and so I think this stack is not of real ACW rounds. Mike above also provides supporting evidence regarding the Gettysburg Whitworth projectiles. Do we have any proof that any monument Whitworth projectiles were real war period projectiles?
Note: For those interested the entire image of the Parrotts in various resolutions can be found here:
http://www.loc.gov/pictures/item/det1994009285/PP/
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Thanks Carl, but we are starting to stray.
John ::)
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Stray from what? The original topic was "Field caliber Whitworths" and it morphed into "Are deteachable nose whitworths an ACW shell?" and some of the evidence discussed was the Gettysburg Whitworths. .
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Yes, the Gettysburg NPS had 12-pdr. Whitworth Bolt reproductions made. Thay are shown on page 332 of the D&G-1993 book. As the book says on that page, a retired Gettysburg ranger told me about them.
The projectiles in the second photo are brass-saboted Absterdam Type 3 shells.
It's 3:06AM here at the moment. Got to get some rest. I'll have more to say about the detachable-nose Whitworth Case-Shot shells tomorrow.
Regards,
Pete
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What's this need for sleep? It just wastes time we could be productive! ;D
I look forward to your reply.
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Pete is resting? Must be the holidays!
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Carl,
A concise overview of this topic, thank you. Mike’s image and Pete’s comment prompted a little over 100 visits to this topic
You asked “stray from what?” and I say the central images and verbal quotes from Mr. Nathan Henry from the Underwater Archeology Department at Fort Fisher that brought to this topic over 235 additional visits. Mr. Henry’s evidence placed the nose ejecting Whitworth case shot inside the sunken blockade runner “Modern Greece”. This discovery and salvage really established the Underwater Archeology Department of Fort Fisher and the rightful place of the Whitworth case shot in ACW history.
The sad part of this topic is that some will still reject the evidence.
Kind Regards,
John
Below are two more and different images of the case shot which I found on the Internet.
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Having started this thread to get some conversation going and not knowing then where that discussion would lead (and in fact learning from some of it), I personally don’t think we are straying, merely meandering through some of the many interesting facets brought out by this thread.
Experimental projectiles from places like Milledgeville or the West Point range, unfinished, apparently not distributed types found only at arsenal dump sites, and ones on that have only been found on ships like the Brittens off the Georgiana prove these things to have been part of the larger context of the American Civil War, but as RedBob wrote, it is a collectors own feelings that determine whether one thinks of these in the same way as that individual regards battlefield recovered specimens. I know for a lot of folks, shells not having been actually used in combat fired at the enemy is an asterisk (& some collectors of their own prerogative may even go so far as to not want to collect them as a result – aka Carl’s politics reference and lets please not go there as Scott is a skilled debater who will happily take on all comers in that area). My personal choice is that I have in my collection a number of projectiles, and some fuses, from all the places listed above and I still think they are cool even if in my mind of minds the ones with verifiable battlefield usage have a little more interesting history to me.
I never knew these detached nose Whitworths made it even to our shores as early as 1862. It would seem logical that in the ensuing 3 years some like them were used in battle, but I am not aware of them. I don’t think the Gettysburg projectiles stacks are good proof of that. Speaking only personally but to me it would be be very, and even more interesting, to confirm some actually got fired in battle here. Still, as I mentioned for me their presence in a blockade runner alone elevates them historically for what I am interested in from the vast amount of Whitworth projectiles that are out across the globe or were imported after by places like Bannermans that never were even considered for use here during the ACW or after even. For me, as a personal choice, that is where I generally draw the line. BUT as you can see, I made an exception with the Baby Whitworth because it too is neat in its own right and I had seen war dated Baby Whitworth cannon out in my South American travels. So, in sum, I guess there are no firm rules, only individual collector preference.
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Now, this is how I think an administrator/moderator should sound; good job.
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Well said Mike. So what is your opinion of the Whitworth case shot now?
If you would like to read the Department's report it can be read at:
http://www.archaeology.ncdcr.gov/ncarch/UAB/pdf%20Files/Modern%20Greece%20Report.pdf
Kind Regards,
John
After thought:
If we are to use individual collectors ideas on this subject , then we lose a standard for identification, projectile systems and shell/Fuze functioning.
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Well said Mike and thanks. I agree on all counts.
By my way of thinking the Modern Greece findings does make them ACW projectiles and I would gladly have one in my collection if I could afford it. But I would want one from the Modern Greece and not a non-battlefield example.
What is the standard that you are worried about losing John? I don't think anyone is questioning the shell's type, use or fusing. The only question seemed to be if it rightfully belonged in the collections of the purest of collectors of ACW projectiles. And, again in my mind and I think most others if not all, your information regarding the Modern Greece has convinced us it does belong.
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Dear Carl,
What I meant was that we must avoid individual ideas about how to identify a projectile, the system it belongs to and how the Fuze/fuse and shell functions. If we don't hold to a standard then we will lose all sense of direction and purpose.
I don't believe a standard has been established for the standard of acceptance of what constitutes a projectile and its place in the ACW history, if we had one there would be no need for this discussion.
I would ask Rebob where he heard about the Whitworth case shot as it is so rare and covered in few books?
Anyway this has been a most interest and informative topic and I pray ALL have LEARNED from it. :)
Kind Regards,
John
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Just to clarify, I do not own a whitworth case shot projectile as discussed in this topic. And again, I consider them ACW by virtue of being recovered from the Modern Greece. Not that my opinion means anything, just that I have nothing to gain or lose.
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Sir,
Your opinion certainly means a lot to me about the projectile being of ACW era. It tells me that you and two other paid attention. Thank you.
Regards,
John
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Hey, I've been paying attention, too - and soaking it up like a sponge!
Unfortunately, I've got nothing of any value (except my silence) to contribute.
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Sir,
Your opinion certainly means a lot to me about the projectile being of ACW era. It tells me that you and two other paid attention. Thank you.
Regards,
John
LOL! Why, thank you very much Sir! Best compliment I've gotten in quite sometime.
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Friends, well I asked around with the local old timer diggers in the area of Wilmington and Fort Fisher. Nobody has dug a 12 lb WW shell, that they know of. A few bolts, but no shell or segmented shell.
As I said earlier a stacked pile of 6 lb'ers shells were found, and then a few 6 lb'er shells here and there north of the fort. None had fuzes, suspecting they had either a 'make-do' wood fuze, or they were fired in lieu of bolts.
There was one fella, who has since passed away, that was not into artillery that much, who once told me he dug a 12 lb WW with a fuze. His wife didn't like it in the house, so he threw it off the bridge !! Here's a mission for Diverdigger !! Unfortunately, with his passing so goes more info about the shell.......
Sorry I couldn't add more info to the conversation.......
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who is diverdigger?
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Your doppleganger?
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I remember that bridge toos story, Dave K, but I remember it as being a 6pdr Whitworth shell that got thrown overboard.
Sometime I'd like to see your or Jack's collection of Whitworth projectiles which trump my meager offerings.
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I have never heard of any whitworths being found. The flying battery ran all over the place shooting at blockade ships, but all those shells went in the ocean. I do have a small shipping plug that was found in the area that had a hole drilled in it that a paper fuze would fit in nicely and I have allways wondered if it was used that way. I have seen a lot of the Modern Greece shells but the only ones I saw were 12 lb bolts and 100 lb shells. But the 2nd SC calvary were dragging a whitworth around and were allways waiting shells for it. I think they were using the small Hardings with wood sabots. If Jack Wells said a whitworth with a detachable nose was found here, then it was.
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I don't think anyone is disagreeing with Jack Wells's comments. He said some were found on the Modern Greece and he thought he'd found a nose somewhere, but he has not provided us with a recovery area for the detachable nose, at least on this board to my reading.
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Correct. My mistake.
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I didn't want to start a new thread with this as it is post CW and not US, but thought it was interesting next to the junk car in the alley, a whitworth cannon barrel for sale. E auction #291014427467
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The Armstrong cannon would be a neat item to have.
Direct link:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/291014427467
Free local pickup if you happen to be in Buenos Aires, Argentina! Might be hard to get the 9000 pounds on a plane.
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Theoretically, I had a chance a couple years back to buy a baby Whitworth cannon for $4,000 down that way. I said, I'll give you $10k delivered to me in the good ol' US of A. That was pretty much the end of that. They have stringent laws on exporting antiques, but apparently there is a lot of graft and corruption so people with the right connections can get things out. Not wanting to lose all my money or worse spend my remaining days in a South American jail, for once I resisted temptation and stayed clean of that.
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And the owner calls it a muzzle loader.:)
John