Bullet and Shell Civil War Projectiles Forum
Relic Discussion => Artillery => Topic started by: scottfromgeorgia on January 30, 2018, 12:20:42 PM
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These little bolts used to be hotly debated, since there is no known use of them, but is there any recent information on their source and use?
The following is from an exchange between Pete George and myself in 2006 after I bought one of these bolts from Lawrence Christopher:
"No collector or book-author I consulted has knowledge of any CS 2.25 BREECHLOADING rifled cannon having ever existed. (Nor was there a US civil-war-era one.) That DuBose article seems to be the only place that a 2.25 breechloader is mentioned ...and DuBose only says "were apparently made." Why say "apparently" instead of just "were made"? As an author, I can tell you that you use "apparently" when your info isn't rock-solid and you need to keep some wiggle-room in your statement. Why haven't any other cannon-historians been able to confirm what DuBose said 20-odd years ago? (And remember, he only said "apparently.")
I (and the cannon-book authors) sure would to be able to talk to whoever wrote the "documentation" that came with the mystery-bolt. We very much want to see his source-material about the Sumner Oscillating breechloader - and discover its caliber in that material. If it is 2.25, why didn't he say so "outright"? But he merely said the bolt is for it.
We know the following about them:
They've been found ONLY in the river at Milledgeville - no field-use is known ...nor even from a test-range.
They're found with CS shells - but so are the US 1880s friction-primers.
They'd fit a CS 2.25 Breechloader - but all the cannon-book authors know of no solid documentation that such a weapon existed.
There are two 2.24-inch US 1880s breechloading cannon models they'd fit.
A larger-caliber 1870s US breechloader-projectile is known (a pointed-nose short-bodied bolt) which has a square iron body under its band."
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I'm NO expert or even close, just a novice trying to learn. That being said, judging by what you posted, I would vote that they are from the 1880's gun you mentioned. Due to lack of evidence otherwise.
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Discussions of this bolt and the gun that fired it seems to be the "unicorns" of the artillery collecting world. While some say that it existed, others equally qualified state that no way did it exist. I guess that it is good that mysteries still exist.
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It apparently did go to something however. Unless its a fantasy piece made up in a shop somewhere which I do not think is the case.
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If you believe the story, it is also called "The Georgia Railroad Gun" because the gun and bolts were supposedly made in a railroad repair shop in Georgia from the axle of a railroad car and the plan was to use it to protect the railroad from Northerners. A number of these bolts came out of the river and their main difference was whether or not they had lead bourettes attached to the bolt. You have to admit that the notion of a bunch of "good ole boys" sitting around a shop and deciding one day to make a cannon is rather intriguing; not unlike the idea of building a boat in the basement of a fire station and knowing that there was no way to get it out...
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lol that's funny ;D
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I've seen a number of discussions over the years on them but nothing definitive. One thing I'll add to this thread is that I've cleaned a couple and will say the iron quality of the two I cleaned does look civil war period. It was kind of porous looking. But I've seen some in collections or for sale that looked like amazingly good metal too. And that is true of the Reads that come from the same river location.
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If you have one in your collection, they are always a good conversation/argument starter when showing your toys to another collector. And to be honest about things, isn't that one of the great things about our hobby/obsession?:)
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Dang, just found this 2013 discussion from this very Forum, which I had completely forgotten. Same points as made here:
http://bulletandshell.com/forum/index.php?topic=890.0
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Part of my analysis in that 2013 discussion was, it seems there is no surviving historical document which tells what the caliber of the Sumner Oscillating Cannon was. So how can anybody claim that these Milledgeville bolts were made for use in it?
I'll add that it seems unlikely that the Georgia Railroad's machining-shop would have the necessary equipment laying around (and the necessary expertise) to cut rifling-grooves inside the barrel of a cannon.
Some of the information floating around (such as the Georgia Railroad machining-shop stuff) is said to be taken from a 20-something-years old magazine article written by Beverly DuBose. Does anybody here have access to that article, and if so, could it be scanned and posted here, so we could see exactly what it says, and doesn't say? Theoretically, the copyright has expired by now.
Regards,
Pete
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Pete, I have a question about copyright that has absolutely nothing to do with this thread but you spiked my curiosity. Obviously you being a distinguished and talented author (is that enough sucking up, lol) even if the copyright had not expired wouldn't scanning the article not be in violation of copyright laws since you are simply taking a picture of article and not writing it yourself then claiming it to be yours. And you are not scanning the document and reselling either. But of course I a not a lawyer and we don't enforce copyright laws at my agency so I have no clue. I was just curious. reckon we can go back to the subject o the thread now.
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Just to add fuel to the fire, I got one of these bolts when they were retrieved from the Oconee River in Milledgeville. Mine does have both lead bourrelets.
Since all the ordnance that was recovered there was Confederate, I have always assumed it was both Civil War period and Confederate, but those are just assumptions with no documentation to back them up.
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Pete, I have a question about copyright that has absolutely nothing to do with this thread but you spiked my curiosity. Obviously you being a distinguished and talented author (is that enough sucking up, lol) even if the copyright had not expired wouldn't scanning the article not be in violation of copyright laws since you are simply taking a picture of article and not writing it yourself then claiming it to be yours. And you are not scanning the document and reselling either. But of course I a not a lawyer and we don't enforce copyright laws at my agency so I have no clue. I was just curious. reckon we can go back to the subject o the thread now.
The answer is yes, you would violate copyright. You are permitted to reproduce only small parts of such material, and that only for specific purposes such as citation, and any more than that requires written permission of the copyright holder. So scanning and publishing the whole article indeed is a violation of the rights of the copyholder.
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ok. as I said I have no knowledge of copyright laws.
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How can you not enjoy a discussion such as this? It has mystery, intrigue and above all great information.
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We know the following about them:
They've been found ONLY in the river at Milledgeville - no field-use is known ...nor even from a test-range.
They're found with CS shells - but so are the US 1880s friction-primers.
They'd fit a CS 2.25 Breechloader - but all the cannon-book authors know of no solid documentation that such a weapon existed.
There are two 2.24-inch US 1880s breechloading cannon models they'd fit.
A larger-caliber 1870s US breechloader-projectile is known (a pointed-nose short-bodied bolt) which has a square iron body under its band."
If it walks like a duck and talks like a duck. its probably a duck. That being said It's probably what Scott is suggesting in the quote above. Probably and 1880's era projectile.
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Jack Bell wrote:
> "Since all the ordnance that was recovered there was Confederate, I have always assumed it was both Civil War period and Confederate, but those are just assumptions with no documentation to back them up. "
Jack, thought you'd want to know, you are mistaken that "all the Ordnance that was recovered there was Confederate." As has been mentioned previously in this discussion, postwar Ordnance has come from the river-dumping location a Milledgeville... specifically, more than just a few unused US Model-1896 cannon fiction primers, unfired .45-70 Springfield cartridges, and unfired .30-06 Springfield cartridges. Their presence strongly indicates Military Ordnance dumpings have occurred more than just once or twice at that location.
Regards,
Pete
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Okay, since posting a scan of the DuBose article would be a violation of the magazine's copyright, can somebody here who has access to the article please tell us whether or not it tells the caliber of the Sumner Oscillating cannon, and if so, quote the sentence or two where it tells the Sumner's caliber?
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The Dubose papers are at the Atlanta Historical Center, and available to anyone who wants to read them. Here is the list of documents - many ordnance related.
Not saying that the answer to this mystery is in there, but it might be.
http://ahc.galileo.usg.edu/ahc/view?docId=ead/ahc.MSS1020-ead.xml&anchor.id=0#node.1
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It seems I remembers not too many years back that Jack Melton wrote an article for the NSTCW (I think?) on this projectile. I did a search on nstcw.com but with no luck on finding the article. Anyone else remember it? It might have the reference info in it Pete is looking for.
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Here is the reference published on Jack's site, http://www.civilwarartillery.com/manufacturers.htm:
Georgia Railroad Machine Shop: Augusta, GA. - news article in the Columbus Daily Enquirer of August 31, 1861, announced that the mechanics at the above had built a "new styled cannon" called a Sumner Oscillating Breech Loading Rifled Gun. It was manufactured from the crank axle of a railroad engine. Other cannon were apparently made at the facility including some 2.25-inch breech loading rifles. (Beverly M. Dubose, III, "The Manufacture of Confederate Ordnance in Georgia," the Atlanta Historical Bulletin (1967), 19). There were two breech loading rifles made by the Georgia Railroad Machine shop and issued through the Atlanta Arsenal on January 28 and April 11. The January 14 issue states however: "Maker: Rushton, Georgia Railroad, Atlanta, GA."
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Here is the full 1861 article, which can be found at https://scholarworks.uttyler.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?referer=https://www.google.com/&httpsredir=1&article=1013&context=cw_newstitles p 16
It references, not a bolt, but a "five pound conical ball."
DAILY CONSTITUTIONALIST [AUGUSTA, GA], August 29, 1861, p. 1, c. 2
A New Cannon.
We have hinted on one or two occasions within the past few weeks, at an enterprise going on in this city, which we denominated as “an addition to Sherman’s batter.” We are now at
liberty to disclose the subject; and, through the courtesy of Mr. Hardeman, Master Machinist, and other gentlemen connected with the Georgia Railroad Machine Shop, to which we paid a visit this morning, we are enabled to make the following statement in reference to the enterprise to which we have alluded. A new style cannon has been built by the mechanics of the Georgia Railroad Machine Shop, which embraces a new principle in gunnery. It is the invention of Mr. Thos. Sumner, and is styled the Sumner Oscillating Breach-loading Rifled Gun.
It was manufactured from the crank axle of the first engine owned by the Georgia Railroad Company, and is finished in the most workmanlike manner. It is to be arranged to fire with a fuse or cap, and carries a five pound conical ball.
We do not intend or desire to give a full description of this gun, as it may prove to be an invention of too much importance to be heralded abroad at the present time; but we presume that in a few weeks our citizens will have an opportunity of examining it for themselves, and seeing it tested. In the meantime, it is to be sent to Atlanta for some purpose, and will be forwarded there to night. It has been mounted on a neat and light carriage, and all the work about it reflects great credit upon those engaged in its construction. Mr. Sumner has made application for a patent for this gun. He has also invented a musket on the same principle, and is satisfied that old guns can be altered in accordance with it, so as to render them three times their original value. Mr. Sumner has still another invention—a steam trip-hammer, which is in operation at the Machine shop, and is quite a novelty in its way. This gentleman is certainly an acquisition to his employers, and will, we hope, be successful, in the highest degree, in the enterprises in which he is now engaged.
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An article from the same site mentioning Sumner in Nov 1861:
DAILY CONSTITUTIONALIST [AUGUSTA, GA], November 21, 1861, p. 3, c. 3
Georgia Arms.
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Wright’s Legion, commanded by Hon. A. R. Wright, the Representative from the 10th Georgia Congressional District, arrived here a few evening’s since, and are encamped in the vicinity. They number about a thousand men, and are all from the upper portion of the State. They are a fine body of men, and their arms, in some respects, different from those
of any other command in the service. Some three companies, or perhaps more, are armed with pikes, a most formidable weapon for close quarters, and of Georgia invention.
Long blades of steel are inserted in a handle of wood some six feet in length, and are suddenly thrown out by pressure on a spring or trigger at the opposite end. These blades or pikes are about two inches in width, and fifteen inches long. The field pieces of the Legion are also worthy of note. They consist of four beautiful rifled six pounders, three rifled twelve pounders, breech loading, with double chambers, and a rifled gun, mounted on wheels, with percussion attachments, and capable of throwing a ball with accuracy some four miles.
These pieces are all of Atlanta manufacture, and, except the first mentioned, the invention of Mr. W. Sumner, of the Georgia Railroad workshops. The design and workmanship
are both admirable, and we expect great execution from them when brought into action under the control of the gallant men of the Legion.
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Another reference to the gun was published in the Daily Nashville Patriot in Aug 1861, but I cannot read it since you must for a subscription to access the newspapers:
Daily Nashville Patriot from Nashville, Tennessee on August 31, 1861 ...
https://www.newspapers.com/newspage/86539034/
Mr. Thomas Sumner, an employee in the Georgia Railroad Machine Shop, in this city, has invented an completed a rifled cannon, which we were kindly permitted to inspect this morning. To give anything like a detailed description of this gun, is beyond our power, but a pnet sKetcn oi us main peculiarities may be of interest.
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While this gun seems to have been real, since these observers reported eye witness reports, there seems to be nothing at all connecting the gun with the little bolt found in the Oconee River.
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Excellent information Scott. Great job at digging this up. interesting that the date is 1861 at the start of hostilities. You would think that if these bolts were for the Sumner gun some would have found their way into a caisson somewhere and been used at some point. Perhaps the gun was used to guard some remote river access and any fired projectiles haven't been found...yet.
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Pete -Thanks for your comment about post-war ordnance being dumped at the same or a nearby site to the Civil War ordnance recovered. I was told by the people that recovered the CS projectiles that no Union projectiles were found there.
Was that statement regarding the CW projectiles accurate? Thanks.
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Jack: Until Pete can reply with a more informed answer I will offer what I have experienced. The shells I've seen from there that you can ID as US or CS have all been CS. There are 6-lber solid shots from there that could be either. Some have the sabots still on them and that could perhaps ID them as CS as well. Maybe someone has one of those and can chime in. The bolts in question aside, I know of no US or post-war projectiles from there. As Pete said there has been post-ACW ordnance items such as friction primers from there as well as bullet casings.
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Oops... sorry, answering Jack's simple question slipped my mind. Yes, insofar as I know, no civil war yankee artillery projectiles have been found at the Milledgeville river-dump. The jury is still out on the little lead-ringed bolts for a Breechloading Rifle, because the diameter of their lead bourrelets (2.23-to-2.25") is too small to effectively engage the rifling of a 2.25"-caliber rifled cannon, and nobody has found documentation of a Confederate cannon whose caliber the bolts would correctly fit.
As this discussion-thread has shown, there is no documentation which tells the Sumner Oscillating Breechloading Rifle's caliber... so saying the little Milledgeville bolts were made for use in the Sumner is an unjustifiable leap.
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I found one Yankee projectile there. It is a 2.6 inch Hotchkiss percussion. I was able to take the fuze apart. Most of what we found there was from Selma.