Bullet and Shell Civil War Projectiles Forum
Relic Discussion => Bullets => Topic started by: KegRiver on February 25, 2012, 02:44:26 PM
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Hi all.
I'm a cartridge collector and I'm more into recent ammunition but today a fellow offered to sell me a Gatling Gun cartridge.
I haven't seen it but from what he tells me it is from a Gatling Gun owned by a Lieutenant A.L. Howard of the Connecticut National Guard.
He says that this cartridge was from the Battle of Batoche during the Riel Rebellion in Saskatchewan Canada. He further claims that he is a descendent of a NWMP officer who fought in that battle and that this cartridge was passed down to him by his father who was the grandson of the NWMP officer who first acquired the cartridge.
I suspect, from the conversations we have had, that he is telling me the truth. However, he has no documentation to prove the origin of this cartridge. He can prove that his ancestor was indeed a member of the NWMP and that this Officer was present at Batoche during the battle.
Since this is way out of my field of expertise I was hoping that someone here could tell me what would be a fare offer for this cartridge given it's history.
I can't offer a lot for it, but I would like my offer to be a fair one. The seller has not put a price on this item as he says he has no clue what it's worth, and frankly neither do I.
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I am not an expert on these, and others on this forum know more about them than I ever will. There are several different types. I have seen a few with the large brass casings at shows and I think they were in the $175-300 range, but I may be wrong.
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Can you post a picture of it. There are several post war types of Gatling Guns and most of them are self contained cartridges, with several variants of primer styles.
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I don't have a photo of it yet, but the owner promised to send me one.
From what he tells me this would be the predecessor to the 45 70 chambering used after 1890. The Riel rebellion occurred in the mid 1800s and since the only Gatling gun used in that conflict, was a privately owned weapon and therefor most likely a few years old, I surmise that this would have been the second generation Gatling gun. Hence it should have been chambered for the .30 Army smokeless cartridge.
It could also have been custom built for the customer for all I know so it may have some other chambering. He did say it has a brass case so it's not the first generation steel cased load. The only thing the present owner was able to tell me about headstamps ext. was that it has the word Gatling stamped on the head of the case.
Perhaps if I was more familiar with military weapons and their history that may tell me something. Unfortunately I know nothing about such things.
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Gatling guns were made in numerous calibers over the years and remained in service through at least the Spanish American war if I recall correctly. A 3/4" or 1" cartridge variant would be worth the upper end of the price range for such cartridges, but in the 45-90, 50-70 end I'd say you are looking at very low double digits at best. In some cases i.e. 45-90 I wouldn't pay more than a few dollars because the cartridges are so common.
I remembered that I had a photo of a 1" Gatling cartridge mounted on a UMC cartridge board. Note that the adjacent shotgun shells are 12/10 gauge for some idea of comparative size.
The provenance of any particular battle - unless a family member were involved - wouldn't add much to the value for me.
FWIW.
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Yes, its these big huge 1" ones in brass cartridges that I have seen for about $300
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As near as I can figure, this cartridge is a 30.03 cartridge.
He will be sending me a photo in a day or two. He had trouble finding the cartridge as he had put it aside after his father gave it to him. But he found it today and will get a photo to me as soon as he can figure out how to send it via email. LOL He's old school, computers are new territory for him.
In our last communication he described this cartridge as slightly smaller then a 45 70 and but with a longer neck.
He says the only head stamp is the word Gatling.
We shall see what he has soon I hope. In the mean time, I told him I pay $50.00 for it if no one else wanted it. I said I'd try to find out what it is really worth and if it's worth more then $50.00, I'd see if I could find him a buyer.
It's not really my cup of tea as I said. I'm much more interested in cartridges in current use.
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Could it be a U. S. .30-40 Krag from the Spanish-American War period? The Krag had a rimmed cartridge.
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I got the photos last night.
This is the cartridge, with a 45 70 for comparison.
(http://i218.photobucket.com/albums/cc278/KegRiver/Guns/Gatlingcartridge.jpg)
And the headstamp, which I can't read by the way. I can see 45 but the rest is too blurred for my old eyes.
(http://i218.photobucket.com/albums/cc278/KegRiver/Guns/Gatling2.jpg)
I read that some Gatling guns of that period employed the .450 Henry cartridge. I wonder if that is what this is.
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Okay, I've got a much better photo of the headstamp.
(http://i218.photobucket.com/albums/cc278/KegRiver/Guns/headstamp-1.jpg)
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Ok, I'm going to ask what I’m sure to you bullet aficionados is a really dumb question but my teacher always said the only dumb question is the one you don't ask.
I assume the small domed center is the primer used to ignite the powder in the casing when fired. There are two holes in it. Are those from it having been disarmed?
Flame suit on and ready.
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No. That bump is the anvil.
This was a Berdan primed case. This is a type of primer used mostly in Europe and Asia.
At that time, Canada was still pretty much a British Colony. Although we had been granted independence some years earlier, we continued to operate as though we were still a colony. IE our military was made up of mostly British personal and our weapons were almost entirely British in origin.
This case has no primer in it. The primer was removed to disarm the cartridge. What you are looking at is the primer pocket, or hole.
The two holes are flash holes, where the flame from the primer would enter the case, IE the powder reservoir.
The primer compound is a wafer of material that must be pinched to ignite. The anvil is what the firing pin pinches the priming wafer against.
With a Boxer primer, the type used in North America, the anvil is built into the primer itself. And a Boxer primed case has only one centrally located flash hole.
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Very interesting! Thanks for allowing me to interrupt your query with a novice question and providing a great answer. I might beocme a small arms projectile collector yet!
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It has been said, and I agree, that whether this cartridge was from the Northwest Rebellion or not would not likely effect it's value. In my experience, Canadian artifacts of any type or quality do not draw premium prices.
Being that this rebellion was not considered a significant event, not even by most Canadians, it is unlikely that anything from those battles would fetch a premium price of any sort.
However, as near as I can tell, this particular cartridge is rare, mostly because of the headstamp. And that might give it premium status.
However, I'm no expert on such things so I'm only guessing. And I still have no firm figure as to a fair market price for this Cartridge.
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email oldammo, Gene Spicer, old22spice&hotmail.com with a pic, he will know value just betcha
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Hello,
The Gatling gun cartridge family is varied but quite interesting.
1. 58-caliber rimfire conical ball-Model 1865. Post Civil War.
2. 1" rimfire conical ball-Model 1866. PCW.
3. 50-70 caliber 1866 to 1871. PCW.
4. 45-70 caliber 1874 to 1892. PCW.
5. 30-40 caliber 1893 to 1900. PCW
6. 30-03 caliber 1903. PCW.
7. 30-06 caliber 1903 to 1906. PCW
Mike showed a good solid base 1" caliber Gatling gun bullet.
The Gatling gun bullet is a small collection in itself and pretty hard to get.
I hope this helps a little with the calibers and dates of service both in the US and in other countries.
Tom S.
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Thanks dlw1610,
I'll try that.
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dlw1610,
Thanks again. I heard from Gene, already! And you were right, he gave me a full rundown on the value of this cartridge and he also extended me a very generous trade offer should I acquire it.
At least now I can tell the present owner what it is worth should he want to sell.
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Hello,
The Gatling gun cartridge family is varied but quite interesting.
1. 58-caliber rimfire conical ball-Model 1865. Post Civil War.
2. 1" rimfire conical ball-Model 1866. PCW.
3. 50-70 caliber 1866 to 1871. PCW.
4. 45-70 caliber 1874 to 1892. PCW.
5. 30-40 caliber 1893 to 1900. PCW
6. 30-03 caliber 1903. PCW.
7. 30-06 caliber 1903 to 1906. PCW
Mike showed a good solid base 1" caliber Gatling gun bullet.
The Gatling gun bullet is a small collection in itself and pretty hard to get.
I hope this helps a little with the calibers and dates of service both in the US and in other countries.
Tom S.
I don't see the .577/450 in that list. Where would it fit? Wasn't it a limited production from 1871 to 1884.
I think I read somewhere that it was made for the European market, during that period. Anyone know?
Oh and by the way, I've found what company made this round.
It was made in England by the Sir William Armstrong, Mitchell and Co, sometime between 1882 and 1897.
Another interesting thing I found. Several 45-70 cases were found at Batoche where the one Gatling gun had been during the battle. They all showed evidence of being fired from the wrong chamber. IE; splits and bulges in the case wall.
I have been told in no uncertain terms that the two Gatling guns loaned to Canada and which participated in the Northwest rebellion, were chambered for the 45-70 cartridge.
But I find myself wondering if maybe they were chambered for the 577/450 round instead. At first glance one would assume that a 45-70 cartridge would not fire in a 577/450 chamber because the rim was small enough that the 45-70 would slip right inside the chamber. But would it ? We do know that the version of the 577/450 used in the Gatling guns was not exactly the same as the rifle version of that cartridge.
In fact, at that time, there was considerable variations between one manufactures cases and the next. It is possible, if the 45-70 rounds had a larger then standard rim or if the 577/450 chamber was a bit smaller then standard.
My literature shows a 45-70 rim at .608 inches and the base dimension of the 577/450 chamber at .668 inches. That's not all that much by the standards of the day.
Perhaps someone has more information of the dimensions of the cases and chambers of those round during that period.
All and all, a very interesting subject.