Bullet and Shell Civil War Projectiles Forum
Relic Discussion => Artillery => Topic started by: Aquachigger on July 01, 2011, 07:26:18 PM
-
I recently dug this shell, and while cleaning it, noticed what looks like a "'C" stamped on it. I think it is a 2.87" Read shell based on the lathe dimple and wood fuse (opinions would be welcomed). Also, when I popped out the fuze, the shell was completely empty. I guess someone "forgot" to put powder in it? But it does kinda look like a "C" to me. Any opinions on what it might mean? Thanks... Beau Ouimette
-
sir;
Yes I also believe it is either a C or a G Can we see the fuse adapter after it is cleaned, if you clean them. Not sure what the letter stands for. Pete may know.
My question: do lathe dimples in base always mean a Read? It appears to have a wrought iron sabot.
Regards,
John aka Bart
-
Thanks John... The fuze is just a drive in wood one. Here is a pic of it, the nose and the base.
-
Sir,
Coming out of water it may start to spall and crack open on you.
It is either a Parrott or Read, I never could tell the difference to be certain.
Regards,
John
-
It's a CS Read - no doubt. And if it came out of any body of water, swamp,or low wet ground, it needs to be immediately put back in a bucket of water until you can get it to a person that has experience running it through electrolisis to stabilize it. Otherwise, your nice shell will be flaking apart until it is a shadow of it's former self. And it looks like a good one.......
I am sure if you post where you live, someone on the forums can direct you to a person in your area experienced in preserving the shell for you. It looks like it is worth putting the time, money and effort into it, it's a good relic.
David
-
John D. Bartleson wrote:
> My question: do lathe dimples in base always mean a Read?
I suspect you already know most of the info in the following reply -- but perhaps there's a detail or two that's new.
A lathe dimple in the base of that specific model of projectile means it's a Read. But there are some other CS projectiless which have the lathe dimple. Also, some yankee types have it ...notably, the James Type 2, and a few 1860/61 US 100-pounder Parrott projectiles.
> It appears to have a wrought iron sabot.
So far as I know, all of the Read Long-Model projectiles that were manufactured in 1861 and 1862 had an iron sabot. The earliest evidence of copper-saboted Read projectiles in the Eastern Theater seems to be very-early 1863. Regarding the earliest usage of copper-saboted Read projectiles in the Western Theater... I've received reports that some have been found in the Shiloh vicinity. But their time-provance in that vicinity is uncertain, because several of the distinctive frags from 12-pounder Polygonal-cavity shells were dug in the same area, and I'm quite certain no Polygona-cavity roundshells existed in April 1862.
Regards,
Pete
-
Aquachigger, to me the stamping looks like a C, or perhaps a G, but it could also be a Q. Looks like some encrustation is obscuring the lower right side of the stamping's area. Can't be certain about what the letter is until the encrustation gets removed.
I think the mark is highly unlikely to be a G, because in 36 years of observing and researching such markings on projectiles, I've never seen (or heard) of a Read Long-Model projectile with a G on it.
The stamping on your shell is in an unusual place. I've never seen a "solitary" letter stamp located on the lower half of a Read Long-Model projectile.
Please tell us the name of the state the shell was found at. Also, do you have a guess about the approximate date during the war that your shell wound up at where you found it?
Dave is right, if that shell was found in saltwater or even "brackish" water, it needs Electrolysis treatment to prevent cracking. But if it is definitely from freshwater, Electolysis may not be required ...and might even do harm to the shell. Many shells from the freshwater river at Augusta GA and Milledgeville GA have held up fine (for 20 years) without Electrolysis. That being said... some of them were "Graphitized," and therefore could not withstand Electrolysis without losing some of their original iron surface. (Graphitized iron is verry soft, and will "come off" in Electrolysis.)
Regards,
Pete
-
Nice shell. Congrats.
-
Pete,
If it is a C then what does it stand for? There is a Read on the4 Horse Solder and it has a C just above the ogive.
Regards,
John
-
I do not believe it is a "C" for a few reasons including orientation, look, and location of its placement on the shell.
But to answer John's question, some of the stampings I know of are:
G or Omega: Selma
C: Likely Tredegar
Q: Samson & Pae
D: Atlanta
Star: Charleston or Columbia Arsenal
I have been told that somewhere there is a list of these codes for the various confederate arsenals, but I have not seen it. I believe Pete and Howard Aligood were at one time working on a much more comprehensive list. There are other stampings out there including but not limited to: I, F, H, backwards S, T, AR, and A. Except for "AR" most of the locations associated with these are not known to me nor others that I am aware of. People can guess as to regions however due to where the various marked ordnance pieces are found.
This could be a very interesting thread if folks would post up about it.
-
Mike,
Thank you for the letter meanings. But where did you get those from?
Regards,
John
-
In the cases of Atlanta and Selma, projectiles were recovered at the arsenal with those markings. The Samson & Pae attribution is because a shell marked Samson & Pae also had a "Q" stamp on it. The Tredegar association is a bit looser and I'll let Pete tell about that one if he chooses too.
"F" markings are found on things in Southern Virginia and North Carolina which leads me to think that they are from a manufacturer in that area. Other markings are too rare to really even do much more than guess what they mean.
-
Hey Guys... Thank for the comments. I cleaned it up a little more, and before I destroy it completely, this is what I ended up with. At one point, I could see what appeared to be another letter to the left of this one that appeared to be another "C" or the top to an "S". It's gone now though :(
Pete... I found this in an area that saw artillery work in at least '62 and '63.
I have already run this through electrolysis. It is a "soft" shell hence the the way it turned out.
I do have more stampings on shells, but they are all on large navy shells.
I hope I have answered all the questions. If anyone has any more, fire away!
Thanks for all of the help.... Beau Ouimette
-
Am enjoying this topic. Knew there were one or two letters stamped on artillery projectiles, but did not realize there were so many.
-
Digger,
Why not show the other stampings you have?
John
-
Here's a write-up on the "AR" stamp:
http://www.civilwarartillery.com/projectiles/rifled/IIIA100.htm
-
I've got a Tredagar 10 lb Read with a "C" stamped on it. Classic Tredagar base, wood fuse.
Also, I have a couple of 6 lb Borman fused spherical case balls stamped "O". Both were recovered at Vicksburg, and I believe them to be from the A.B. Reading Foundry there.
-
JohnB...This is probably one of the more strange ones I have. It's on a 9" Dahlgren ball.
-
I have found several 10" Columbiad balls with T stamped on them, no idea where they were made
-
If you will check real close, you will sometimes find an "H" stamped above the "S&P" ="Hubard Simpson & Pae".The late Tom Dickey many decades ago showed me a photo copy of an invoice in the National Archeives, for Archer Percussion Fuzes (ID was from description of the fuzes). The Invoice had the letter heading of Hubard Simpson & Pae. In some later research,I found that William .J.Hubard ran a foundry in Richmond known as the Washington Foundry,and Samson & Pae ran a machine shop and did finishing work for Hubard.
At one time according to some very old notes ,I had a long and short Iron Sabot Reed stamped H over
S&P and a long Reed stamped S&P,the metal was mint and the P in my opinion was never stamped on that shell. All three (3) of my shells came from the late Jerry Wright,and were from the Petersburg area ? These were some of the first items I cleaned using electrochemical reduction,all were 3".
Trust this info.will be of use
Jack Wells
Almost forgot,all three(3) projectiles,were fitted with wood fuze plugs
-
Here is an interesting stamp I found when I cleaned a Brooke 6.4 short milled bolt found in the James River. He just put his name on the bolt.
-
When new it looked like this:
John
-
John,
Scott's Brooke is a milled base variety which means the sabot is intergal to the shell and the iron lower portion actually expands into the rifling. It functions much like an Enfield bullet where from the outside it's smooth iron from top to bottom but the bottom view shows a recessed area (cavity) that leaves a thin skirt. This skirt is expanded into the gun's rifling. There is no copper plate (sabot) on the base nor is there any need for the base bolt we often associate with a Brook projectile.
They seem quite rare and are not encountered very often. I would think they would be quite harsh on the bore of the gun. But they would address the scarcity issue of copper.
-
Right, Carl. The entire bolt is wrought iron, including the skirt, which functions as the sabot.
-
Oops,
gosh and I know how a milled base functions. you both are correct and I even had the wrong caliber. :) Well at least the members have a sample of each.
Best Regards,
John
-
Before saying anything else, I should mention that the markings stamped on CS shells & fuzes are not actually an "Arsenal-mark" (such as the script-A and the 5-point-star on yankee Bormann fuzes). On CS artillery projectiles and fuzes, the letter-mark SEEMS to be an Ordnance Inspector's mark, written in a special code. Meaning, the letter was not an initial of the Inspector's name, nor the facility's name. That being said, it probably represented a major CS arsenal's Chief Inspector.
The fact that in almost all cases only a SINGLE letter was used, rather than the Inspector's personal-name initials, suggest that the single-letter was part of a government-assigned alphabetically coded list, with the single-letter mark representing a particular arsenal or production-facility. The purpose was to enable the CS Ordnance Department to "track" particularly bad-performing (or good-performing) projectiles back to their producer. The idea was probably picked up from the yankees. I've read a yankee artillery officer's report which (in essence) said "The best-performing Bormann fuzes are those which bear the mark of the Frankford Arsenal."
John D. Bartleson Jr. wrote:
>> Mike, thank you for the letter meanings. But where did you get those from?
Emike123 replied:
> In the cases of Atlanta and Selma, projectiles were recovered at the arsenal with those markings. The Samson & Pae attribution is because a shell marked Samson & Pae also had a "Q" stamp on it. The Tredegar association is a bit looser and I'll let Pete tell about that one if he chooses too.
As Tom Dickey wrote in our 1980 book... it is not known for certain that the G mark represents the Selma Arsenal, but a great many artillery projectile products of Selma have it.
Though there are some exceptions, the general rule is "ammo tended to be used mainly in the vicinity of where it was manufactured." In other words, ammo produced in a particular state tended to be used mainly in that state or an adjoining state. For about 25 years, I've been using that rule-of-thumb to deduce the production-origin of various markings. For example, C-marked shells are seldom found outside of Virginia.
In addition, a key clue for the C-mark's origin is the fact that certain types of shells were produced only at Tredegar. An example is the "short" 3.4" and 3.5" Read iron-sabot shells for the "Virginia Reamed-&-Rifled 4-pounder Smoothbore" cannon. The only marking thus far seen on those shells is the C-mark.
Back in the early 1980s, I'd used the "local manufacture, local use" principle to deduce that the D-mark represented an Atlanta facility. Then when the cache of "unfinished" shells was discovered in an old well at the civil war era Atlanta Machine Works property, the only marked projectile in the well had the D-mark.
About the CS Ordnance Department's code-letter-in-alphabetic-order list I mentioned above: Please note that the "most commonly seen" letter marks on CS projectiles are in the FIRST 1/5 of the alphabet. (A, C, D, G, H.) If you include the letters found on Confederate copper timefuze-adapters (which first appear in very-early 1863), the most-commonly-seen letters (A, C, D, F, G, H, I) are in the first 1/4 of the alphabet. I suspect that's not a mere coincidence.
(Yes, I know, the commonly-seen Q on copper timefuzes isn't in the first-1/4 of the alphabet ...but it's almost entirely found on fuzes, not projectiles ...and it is the sole exception to the first-1/4 clustering.
I suspect the missing letters in the first-1/4 (B and E) were assigned to arsenals which got captured early in the war, before the coded-list was fully implemented. (The B and E might have been New Orleans, and Memphis or Nashville).
Important notes:
1- All of the letters past H are very rarely seen ...except for Q when on timefuze-adapters.
2- Nearly all of the "after H" letters have been dug only at Summer-1864-or-later sites.
Here is a list of letters I have observed, and the ordnance type they are MOST OFTEN seen on. I'll include what I think the letter represents, if I think there's enough evidence to support the theory.
A - Broun 3" shells, dug in Richmond/Petersburg area (might be Bellona Arsenal, in Richmond)
C - Long-model Read shells with iron sabot, 30-pdr. Brooke sabots, also some copper timefuzes, Rains Torpedo fuze, Tredegar Arsenal
D - sabot of 10 and 20-pounder Brooke shells, 20-pounder Long-model Read iron-sabot shells, 10"-caliber Columbiad shells, Atlanta Arsenal
F - copper timefuzes, dug in VA and NC (might be a major North Carolina arsenal)
G - field-caliber roundshells and Brooke sabots, 3" Read bolts, 3" Archer bolts, Selma Arsenal
H - 10-pounder Long-model Read shells, 3-inch Read with copper sabot, a Richmond-area facility
I - copper timefuzes (dug in VA)
L - Broun 3" shell sabots (dug in VA)
M - heavy-caliber Brooke Ratchet-Ring sabot (dug in VA)
O - field-caliber Bormann-fuzed roundshells (Alabama and Mississippi sites)
Q - copper timefuzes, a single 10-pounder Long-model Read shell, a Richmond-area facility
R - "Selma-Disc" sabots
S - Brooke Milled-Base bolts (dug in the Richmond/Petersburg area)
T - heavy-caliber roundshells (dug in Columbia SC river-dump, and at NC coastline - Fort Fisher area)
Z - 10-pounder Long-model Read shells (dug in VA sites)
As mentioned, that list is letters on shells & fuzes I've personally examined. As also mentioned, it tells the type of ordnance the mark is MOST OFTEN seen on. I know it's not a complete list. Please feel free to add to it.
There are other marks, which are not letters, but because this post is already extremely long, I'll discuss them in a later post.
Some further notes: As Jack Wells mentioned, the "S&P" (Samson & Pae, a foundry & metal-finishing facility in Richmond VA) mark has been seen with a separately-marked H on a 10-pounder Long-model Read. In addition, the S&P mark with a very-separate Q has been found on another 10-pounder Long-model Read. To me, this is proof that major projectile-producers were "subcontracting" the lathing/metalfinishing work out to local privately-owned metalwork businesses. A foundry can cast far more projectiles in a day than it can do the "finishing" work on ...so the overproduction gets sent out to a subcontractor for "finishing." My point, if it isn't already clear, is that the S&P mark was put onto the shell by Samson & Pae's inspector when the finishing-work was completed there, and the H was applied LATER by the inspector at the larger producer which sent the shells to S&P for finishing-work, as his "mark of acceptance" of S&P's work.
By "finishing," I mean lathing-work, and chiseling off the mold-sprue, casting-burrs & seam-flashing, and reaming out the crude-cast fuzehole and cutting threads into it. We know that Adolphus Rahm's Eagle Machine Works metalfinishing shop in Richmond did such work on many 12-pounder Sideloader Case-Shot and Long-model Reads,, then marked them with the personal initials "AR."
Regards,
Pete
Note: I edited this post in 2015 only to correct a small but important typo error.
-
Pete:
Thank you for taking the time both over the years to gather this information and today to post it. As I mentioned early in this thread, this has the potential to be one of the most informative threads on the forum and your contribution has made it thus. We have a lot of great information here that needs to be recorded.
I have a few shells with "R" on them and they came from the Oconee River dump at Milledgeville. I think perhaps the fact you did not attribute this location to the letter "R" is that some of this material may have been transported to Milledgeviile before it fell.
I have a backwards "S" stamped 6pdr with the drilled out (for use as a time fuse) CS Bormann fuse that our very own Terry Waxham recovered on his property in Louisiana.
-
You're welcome. :)
Yes... the reason I didn't include a Milledgeville location-association to the R-mark is that insofar as is currently known, Milledgeville GA never produced any artillery projectiles. Milledgeville wasn't an Arsenal ...it was merely a "depot" (and is so named in the military reports). In military terminology, a depot is just a storage-and-distribution location for military supplies. It doesn't manufacture them.
Regards,
Pete
-
Hello,
I've found two 10 lber Brooke shells in the Kennesaw Mountain area. One had the 'D' marking on it which make sense to be from Atlanta. The other one has an '8' (number eight) stamped on it. It is the same size and same font. Any thoughts on that one?
-
Pete, your depth of knowledge on American Civil War artillery boggles my mind. I can't tell you enough how much myself, and everyone else who has an interest in artillery, appreciates what you have taken the time to learn. But most of all, we appreciate how willing you are to share this hard earned knowledge with us, freely. Truly amazing
But what is not seen now, is how through your research what you have deduced through time and scrutiny and dedication, will help the collectors\ researchers \ historians of the future continue adding to the knowledge base. I am sorry for them if they might not have the pleasure of knowing you and calling you a friend and having you available for conversation and consulting, as we all have. David
-
Pete is the best answer to the question: Why are relic hunters a valuable part of our society? The so-called archaeologists should sit at his feet to see how research is done.
-
Dave and Scott... I'm doing what Tom Dickey did for me -- after he saw that my intense interest in civil war shells wasn't going to be just a short-term thing. You've heard the expression "Pass the favors onward" / "Pay it forward."
Thank you very much for taking the time to write the posts.
Regards,
Pete
-
CWArtillery wrote:
> [...] The other one has an '8' (number eight) stamped on it. It is the same size and same font. Any thoughts on that one?
I intended to talk about the non-letter marks (such as a number or other type of symbol) in future post. But since you've brought up the 8-mark on 10-pounder Brooke sabots...
As you know, Confederate projectiles are almost never-ever marked with just a number. I haven't yet been able to come up with a "trackback-code" reason for single-digit numbers.
But I have thought of an entirely different kind of reason for using the Omega-mark, the 8 mark, and the O with a "dash" THROUGH one side of the O. I think they could be a "substitution" for Selma's G mark. All of those three symbols have a close resemblance to a capital letter G. (Squint at them and you'll see what I mean.) Also, all of those three symbols are found only in areas which were supplied by Selma.
If you were a Confederate metal-finisher and you broke your G-stamp, and couldn't get a replacement in the mid-to-late-wartime Confederacy, you might decide to approximate the shape of a G by using a similar-looking symbol. Example: stamp an O mark and then add a short "dash-line" across the the right side of the O. It will now look very similar to a G. Also: Turn the Omega onto its left side -- it will then look like a G.
We know that Selma was the chief supplier of artillery projectiles for the Mobile Bay defenses. I know of some CS Borman-fuzed shells which were found dumped in Mobile Bay at an 1865 site. They had the O-with-dash mark.
We also know that some 10-pounder Brooke shells are absolutely identical except for having a G mark or 8 mark on their sabot. So, either two different manufacturerers were producing absolutely-identical Brooke shells -- or they were produced at the same place and a "substitute G mark had to be used to mark some of them.
I do realize this reasoning is "a stretch" ...but I can't think of any other logical reason for the "G-lookalikes" found only in areas supplied by Selma... the Omega mark, 8, and O-with-dash-mark. If somebody can think of a better explanation, particularly for the Omega and the O-with-dash, please share your thinking. :)
Regards,
Pete
-
I'll add two more markings. I have three inch Read round nose bolts with "14" and "15" very clearly stamped into the upper wrought iron band. Mr. George, ny thoughts on these?
-
Thanks to all who posted on this most interesting tread.
Pete, the variety of your knowledge never ceases to amaze me. I think your posts were really valuable to this subject. Thank you again.
With Myr Regards,
John aka Bart
-
You're most welcome, Bart. Thank you for the knowledge I gained from your groundbreaking book.
Let me mention in particular, the radiograph photos in it were an inspiration to me, way back when I was a tadpole. Those "x-ray views" showed me very intriguing things I couldn't see by looking at the shells in Tom's collection. He gave me education about how the shells worked "externally." I herewith give your book (and thus, you) public credit for instigating my deep interest in their internal construction and functioning.
Best regards,
Pete
-
Early on in my collecting when I lived in Memphis someone showed me John's radiograph book and I thought that was so cool and a must have for an artillery collector. As Pete said, it showed how they worked internally and made the projectiles more than just a 'hunk of iron' as my dad used to refer to them. (Sidebar: As a military brat my dad didn't appreciate hauling all that weight around every time he got orders! :) ) I got the address to request John's book and ordered two of them; one for me and one for Jack Melton. Many years later Jack took my book to John's when he visited him and got it signed which I greatly appreciate. It's still one of my favorite books. Thanks John for that early education!
-
As I recall there was a memorandum/directive sent out by either Mallet or Gorgas late in the war - 1864 if my banana pudding brain still works - requiring that ammunition be marked with a "point of origin" [my words in quotes] stamp or identifying mark for the purposes stated in a preceding posting. My point is that this would seem to imply that while SOME manufacturers may have used identifying marks from the git-go some others (single operators producing at a given location) may have omitted the use of same until the (Gorgas/Mallet?) directive arrived later in the war.
FWIW, I have in my research papers irrefutable evidence that many "Selma" projectiles were actually produced by several foundries up the Cahaba River Basin north of Selma and subsequently shipped to Selma for inspection, acceptance/rejection and finish processing. i.e. the C. B. Churchill Company charged the Selma Arsenal a fee of $0.35 to tap a Bormann ball and (if the banana pudding is working) and an additional $0.05 to tap the underplug hole. Inasmuch as there were probably a half dozen foundries north of Selma making lots large and small of varying projectiles and sending them down the Alabama and Tennessee Rivers Railroad to the Arsenal the potential for mixing the otherwise unattributed product(s) is obvious. I suspect that some of the earlier (say mid-1862) production was among the first to be stamped simply to sort things out (literally) at the Arsenal well prior to the 1864(?) directive. This would/could also explain multiple markings attributed to single points of "production".
Pete? Mike? Carl? Guys? Your Thoughts?
-
Bill,
I believe yours and Pete's thoughts are in alignment.
Pete and Carl,
Thank you for your kind words of appreciation. I was encouraged by my C.O. Dewitt Moody, to put together a Field Guide for ACW ordnance. For at that time the military had no identification or guidelines to deal with 'cannonballs'. Thanks to the efforts and cooperation of Bob Noland at our EOD Technical Facility we were able to include the radiographs. Which, by the way, have never been repeated. My goal now is to produce color plates of them. My color plates are more than likely the first since Abbot had the line drawings made to include in "The Campaign Against Richmond". I owe my thanks to Doug Adams for teaching me the software tecnniques to make them.
Currently I have created about 300 American Civil War projectiles and their fuzes and about 125 British shells and fuzes. From time to time I will post one to help illustrate an ongoing subject.
Best Regards,
John aka Bart
-
John aka Bart,
I bought your book back in 1972 or 1973 and have it yet. GREAT book!
Best egards,
Gary
-
Gary,
I do hope that the Field Guide has been useful to you. It was meant to illustrate the basic patterns known to exist at that time. Fortunately for all of us collectors and historians have found untold quantities and new patterns of projectiles and fuses/fuzes and have produced many more fine books on the subject such as Ripley, Dickey's two books, Dickey and George's two volumes, Melton, Jones and Jack Bell's, just to name the ones I know of.
It is a proven fact that private collectors and historians have produced more books on ACW ordnance than any state or government endeavors. If it were not for the members of this forum, countless pieces would lie rusting and deteriorating and lost forever.
so my hat is off to each of you. Just be careful, don't take chances and enjoy one of our most interesting and challenging hobbies.
With Best Regards,
John aka Bart
-
sorry asked questions as I read down the forums. saw it after, will ask there:)
-
Have a 10" columbiad shell stamped with a T from Ft Fisher, any idea what the T stands for?