Bullet and Shell Civil War Projectiles Forum
Relic Discussion => Artillery => Topic started by: emike123 on April 18, 2014, 06:41:33 PM
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The 3.67" Finned Archer was #2 on my want list. This one came out of Culpeper.
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That settles it. You are the King.
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If that is #2, I imagine that #1 is nothing short of spectacular.
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VERY nice Mike.
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Mike, how about several, clearer views?? A fin stablized ACW shell. Have I missed seeing this one in all of our books?
How did it achieve gas check? How come no angle on the fins. Is this a hoax Mike?
John ::)
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Not a hoax, Bart. It is shown in both the 1980 and 1993 editions of the Dickey-&-George books. Emike's specimen in missing the lead band sabot which encircled the top of the shell's conical "tail-section" above the fins. A small flange at the top of each fin locked the band-sabot in place, to impart the spin from the cannon's rifling.
Regards,
Pete
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I think Mike should have waited on one in better condition. ;D
Wow, this is a really tough shell to get for sure. I've only ever seen the one in Tom Dickey's collection and one year long ago someone brought one into the Richmond show they had very recently found near Richmond. It was still uncleaned but looked like it would clean up nicely. Now maybe if I am good Mike will allow me to see this one and that'll make three.
Congrats Mike on a really killer acquisition.
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That Archer is one beautiful shell !! If the finned Archer is number two on your want list - is the 6.4 Archer number one ?? And if you get one, what are you gonna do next ??!! Start collecting vintage Beanie Babies ??
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Incredible Mike, congrats on knocking that one off your list!!
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Mike, it looks like a baby version of the "Fat Man" detonated over Nagasaki'
http://images.search.yahoo.com/search/images;_ylt=A0SO8odXzlJTGicA5CNXNyoA;_ylu=X3oDMTB0cmJla3U3BHNlYwNzYwRjb2xvA2dxMQR2dGlkA1ZJUDIyN18x?_adv_prop=image&fr=slv8-hpd03&va=fat+man+atomic+bomb
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Yeah I'm holding out for one with a sabot, but to each their own.... :)
Stephen
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Carl,
I not only got to see it, I actually got to hold it and fondle it! ;D
Dan
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Good to see Mike has learned to share! ;)
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kinda crude looking fins. They probably didn't help much, makes for a really cool looking little shell
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Mike,
Will you honor us with a side and base view of these useless fins. will some artillery engineer tell me the purpose of the the fins? other than for stabilization. Are the fins cast on?
Kind Regards,
John
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Not sure how that could be #2. How could it get cooler than this one!!!
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Thank you Alan. Because it has all three elements of appeal -- desirability, rarity and condition -- it took a lot of effort to track down and secure.
John: Here are more pictures per your request. The fins are cast integrally to the shell body.
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Thanks Mike. It looks pretty clean for a dug specimen doesn't it? What is the ciameter across two opposing fins?or is it the same as the shell body??
Does anyone have a specimen with its sabot intact? or have fin fragments?
John
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The diameters of the fins and body are essentially the same. The diameter across the fins is half a millimeter smaller than at the body. I know there is an optical illusion in the above base view picture, but that is the foreshortening effect and there is not much I can do about it.
There is a picture of one with a sabot in Pete's book. I am afraid it is not going to be easy for you to find other specimens or even parts -- This is the first I have had a shot at, Jack Bell said he had not seen another in 30 years and Carl's comments above about how tough to find these are are similar -- but perhaps we'll be pleasantly surprised.
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Mike,
thank you for the added info. It certainly is a rare one. Almost like the Whitworth case shot. I don't have Pete's book with me here in FL.
Regards,
John
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Ouch -- that's a backhanded compliment I would've expected from others but not you. I'm going to solace myself that it was inadvertent.
The Whitworth case shot is a much more common shell. We see them for sale at many shows but few if anyone buys them. And as previously discussed in another thread, in my humble opinion, it is generally a poseur as by my unscientific estimates 99.9% of those English as opposed to Confederate made shells (probably being charitable with my math) never set foot on American soil except perhaps at Bannermans. I can find you half a dozen rarer, made and used here, projectiles than the Whitworth case shot at any given relic show.
No more pictures for you until after a suitable, determined by me, cooling off period!
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He he he! Pretty funny. Now i get it. The fins were for holding the sabot.
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Hrump! Well now I certainly was not comparing the two with regard to rareity as the Archer is clearly the hands dpwm wommer om rare shells.I am surprised you have forgotten the Modern Greece so soon..:)
Here is my take on the useless fins. The lead sabot will provide initial spin to stabalize the shell in flight. Because the fins apparently have no angle to them in reference to providing added spin, they infact would act like an impellor and retard the spin and probably cause the line of sight to drop.
John
P.S. How many of these have bee dug and where?
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I have not forgotten the Modern Greece, which is why I was careful to use the term US soil. The ones aboard her almost made it to the US shore and a handful may have been salvaged from the wreck and used. Most never got used here which is why if the Archer was #2 on my wishlist, the detachable nose Whitworth isn't even on my list. Others might see it differently as is their prerogative.
All Archers are early war and this finned one is very early, typically associated with 1861 Virginia sites. Pete has it listed as rarity 10 which means fewer than a dozen have survived. I recall the one in his book is from Fairfax which is early war Northern Virginia.
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Mike,
Approx. 1.5 cases were recovered from the Modern Greece. Remember the ship was salvaged by the confederates in order to retrieve the four Whitworth rifles. Surely Shot shell and case shot was removed during that earlier salvage. More than the paltry 1.5 cases of case shot would have been provided for four rifles..... -30-
John
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Mike,
I just received an email from Les Jensen, Curator at West Point Museum and he says that there is not a finned Archer in it collection.
John
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Civility has returned. Thank you gentlemen. ;D
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Good. It probably would've gotten ruined in the West Point Museum storage room where water or some other liquid dripped all over the rare projectiles on the shelves back there. Have they gotten that fixed yet? As of a couple years ago I heard from folks it was a mess back there. If not, anyone out there considering donating their stuff, please send it to me instead as I guarantee to take better care of it!
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I'd be willing to bet there are no more than 4 or 5 of the finned Archers.
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so what is number one dream shell, Mike ??
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If it is a nice 300 pound Parrott with original fuze, I might have a line to one.
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Mike has mentioned a few times on this forum what his #1 penultimate projectile is. It is an exercise of the forum search function for everyone to see if they can find the old threads that said what it was. For a hint, the finned Archer wasn't his first choice for #2 but seems to have moved up into that slot.
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6.4 Archer
Dan
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And we have a winner! Number 2 was the Archer with a Bormann fuse but it seems the winged moved up to number 2 and now off the list. Mike must be hot on the trail of a number 1 or 3 now!
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I would settle for the 300# Parrot.
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6.4 archer looks like, well, an archer. The finned one is still cooler. Guess i go for look rather than scarcity 8)
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I like your logic and look forward to seeing you in Mansfield this coming weekend.
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I say the 6.4 Archer or maybe a 200lb schenkle?
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Mike,
Isn't a 6.4 Archer a seige or garrison rifle? Where would that caliber have been used?
John
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The books say only Island #10, but I have heard rumors of also at Fort Donelson.