Simple Sabot Question

[pipedreamer65]

I've done a fair amount of shell preservation and restoration on my own collection and pieces for friends, etc...

One thing I have not had to do is to bend a bronze sabot into a more desirable shape.  Ordinarily I wouldn't alter historical items, but this sabot (which is still half attached to the projectile) is so twisted and bent, that it keeps the shell from standing on its base.  Course I could turn it own its side, but I want it to stand and due to its condition, it may have to stand.  I'll post an image of the finished project at some point this winter.

Question is, will the sabot bend with some force?  Could it break?  I can repair broken iron but not brass/bronze.

Thank you for any advice that can be offered.

[John D. Bartleson Jr.]

sir:  The sabot may crack. Please post images before you attempt to change its fired condition. If I may recommend?  Why not display it as found and place a photo of an intact shell beside it.  Which projectile is it?
Regards,
John

[pipedreamer65]

It's a ground burst parrott, 95% complete.  It has to stand if I put it back together the way I want it.  The sabot is partly wrenched up underneath the base.

[joevann]

If you try to bend it cold, it will definitely break.  If it must be reshaped, heat and then allow to cool.  Heating and allowing to cool removes the 'temper' from copper.  But, it can only be bent a little before it must be heated and cooled again, as bending or shaping is what tempers it in the first place.

[Selma Hunter]

Pipedreamer65 -

May I suggest that you get in touch with Mr. Robert McDaniel a/k/a "The Relic Doctor" who may be able to assist you.

He is very well known amongst the folks in the artifacts community.  He lives in Waterloo, Alabama.

Good luck.

[pipedreamer65]

Thank you for the advice gentlemen.  Gives me a couple of directions to go.

[emike123]

Sorry to be slow in responding but I have been on vacation.  I have a good friend who owns a metal fabricating business and is experienced in "vintage brass."  He is an avid Civil War guy so interested in this stuff and he has the knowledge and equipment to do what can be done if anything.  Drop me a PM and I will connect you two.

[CarlS]

Once you find the answer, post here.   I'd like to know!  Thanks.

[alwion]

I have reworked many guards on swords and bayonets, and done it cold. Never had one break yet. Does the firing process "temper" the rings differently, or stress the metal when it is wrenched into its new form?, or possibly just poorer metal than would have been on an edged weapon? I do think any metal has a "limit" to its reform though, there are some I look at and say"thats just too much"

[CarlS]

When you straighten it do you do it slowly such as with a C-clamp that you slowly tighten over time or is here some other faster process?   Maybe not but I would think the quality of brass on a sword guard would be better than what might be used for ACW sabots.

Sabots are probably another animal.  There is a difference between copper and brass with copper being more brittle.  The yellow "gold colored" sabots are made from both copper or brass and likely a variety of alloys in between so what you could do to a sabot varies by projectile.  The smooth sized Atlanta Read, for example, has a copper sabot so brittle that it almost always broke off in pieces.  I'm not sure I've ever seen one flex and form to the rifling of a cannon.

[Dave the plumber]

          I tried straightening a 7 inch Brooke sabot once that a had a 'flip up' or pulled  area on one side - not too bad a bend. I thought it would be easy. I put it in a commercial hydraulic press, and two of us sat there with torches putting excessive heat on the ends of the 'flipped up' area.  Even working slowly, it started to crack. So I quit.
    I asked a gunsmith once what he knew about old brass straightening. He said you had to get it at just below the point of melting and apply pressure evenly. He was talking a very few degrees of melting point, too much and it would run to liquid. And even heat along the bend is crucial.  That is why I tried what I did, but chickened out at the first sign of a crack.

[John D. Bartleson Jr.]

The reason I suggested leaving it as it is because that is the way it was left during the war.  If you bend it and risk breaking it then you have a mess.  All the free advise you receive here won't bring it back.
 Regards,
John

[alwion]

probably better brass, and not alloyed as much in a weapon hilt. I usually use a vice for stablization, plastic head mallet or block of wood and a hammer,sometimes a vice with pressure. Keep in mind its a light tap, look, tap ,look, and stop if theres any doubt, If i see even a hairline start, your done, but for me its a very long, slow gradual process, sometimes takes a long time. And a few I have looked at, well sometimes it's just a feeling that no is the answer. I bet its a metal difference, never tried a sabot, and looking at some of mine, most don't look like pure brass, and appear "brittle" so I wouldn't try.

[pipedreamer65]

Well, it is a ground burst that I am attempting to put back together, so I will be altering it anyway from it's historical form.  Since my original post, I've sat down and actually dry reconstructed the bottom portion with the sabot in its present state.  Maybe not as bad as I thought before because, I'm not talking about a huge shift with the sabot and it will not kill my project if I cannot get it to budge.  It will lean a bit if I stand it, but I could do something (hidden shim) to correct that, or I could very well lay it on its side and make a wood cradle for it to sit in.  I just think two frags will fit better and the overall presentation would improve if the sabot could be adjusted out of the way.

I really appreciate the response on this.  I never expected this discussion.  Thank you! 

[John D. Bartleson Jr.]

I am sure we all with you good fortune with the project.  Post us a photo when finished.
Cheers,
John