New proof of civil war rifled cannon "Fixed" shells

[emike123]

You big guys are so sensitive, Dave  , but in my opinion you are correct.  We aim to share our views politely here and as one of the administrators, it is my job to guide folks toward civility as gently as possible.  I have been very, very busy lately and not had the time to participate as much as I would like, nor monitor things 24x7, but I think we have sent some signals out to be respectful and follow the Golden Rule.

Nobody here is profiting from their opinions...it is all voluntary out of a love for the truth.  We have never kicked anyone off the site, nor have we had to remove more than a couple posts in all the time.

We all live in glass houses in terms of our opinions and the courageous people are the ones who post them up.  Lets not relegate folks to lurker status because we fail to put ourselves in the recipients' shoes when it comes to our posts.  I know I posted something that insulted Speed Enforcer once and had to recant so it happens...

This thread has gone from highly educational all the way down into Alice's rabbit hole as far as I am concerned.  Enough facts and views have been shared for people to draw reasonable conclusions.  Time to move on to other topics IMO.

[scottfromgeorgia]

This has been, however, a very rich and interesting thread, and we should have more of them. Pete is the acknowledged expert in the field, but disagreements by the other impressive experts here are welcomed, and I know Pete loves the fray as much as anyone. I look forward to more threads like this one. 

[John D. Bartleson Jr.]

To All I may Have Offended,
       I am certain the above constructive comments apply to me as I was one of the three major contributors to this posting.  If I have not commented with civility with regard to the best interests of the Forum then I sincerely apologize.
       My posts to this thread have been with good intentions to arrive at the facts to preserve the history of ACW artillery projectiles and their fuzes.  In the future I shall endeavor to post with care.
Sincerely,
John D. Bartleson Jr.

[Robert Gregory]

Attached you will find one photo of a Schenkl crate that held 10 rounds of 3 Inch shells.  The packable interior dimensions of the crate were approximately 6" wide x 15" long and about 1/2" short of the height of a shell.  The inside bottom and lid (not shown) had circles cut about 3/8" deep to keep the shells in place during transit.  Each end of the crate was stenciled "3 INCH."  There was no room for powder bags.  The powder bags were shipped in a separate crate. - Bob Gregory

[Pete George]

That Schenkl-shell ammocrate is interesting, and I thank you for posting it, and the descriptive info. However, it does not disprove my position that the answer to the question of whether any civil war Rifled Cannon ever used Fixed-ammunition shells is "Yes." I have never said that ALL Schenkl shells were Fixed ammunition. I've posted several original civil war period dated-&-signed Ordnance Receipts which show SOME 3-inch Schenkl shells (and SOME 3-inch Hotchkiss shells) were issued to various batteries IN THE FIELD as Fixed ammunition.

Regards,
Pete

[Robert Gregory]

Hi Peter,

We met at the Mansfield Show.  Based on the comments that I have reviewed regarding the subject (different writers) it seems that we're all wrapped a little too tight or maybe a little too defensive.  The beautiful example of a Shenkl crate that I posted was merely to broaden our understanding of the packaging of ammunition.  In this particular example there was no room for powder bags.  I didn't broaden the statement to include ALL Schenkl crates.  Best regards - Bob Gregory   

[Pete George]

  Again, thank you for your input and photo contributions, Bob. That Schenkl crate is very interesting. It shows that sometimes the artillery projectile crates were address-marked to a specific officer on the yankee side. A Confederate one marked for 32-pounder shells which was excavated in an air-filled bombproof in the Atlanta siege-lines was stenciled-addressed to General Joe Johnston, CS Army, Atlanta.

Regards,
Pete

[Robert Gregory]

I have attached a poor photo of the following crate taken 40 years ago.  It is painted red with black lettering.  The interior dimensions are 12 3/4" long x 12 3/4 wide and 11 3/4 high.  There are three 1/2" slats running along the inside bottom to support the fuse plugs.  Each end of the crate reads "FIXED AMMN, / 4 ROUNDS / 32 PDR. HOWT. / S. CASE SHOT."  The crate was fabricated at the Watertown Arsenal.  Regards - Bob Gregory

[Robert Gregory]

I have attached a photo of the captioned crate taken 40 years ago.  It is painted black with white lettering.  The interior dimensions are 12 3/4" long x 12 3/4 wide and 11 3/4 high.  There are three 1/2" slats running along the inside bottom to support the fuse plugs.  Each end of the crate reads "FIXED AMMN, / 4 ROUNDS / 32 PDR. HOWT. / SHELLS."  The crate was fabricated at the Watertown Arsenal.  Regards - Bob Gregory

[Robert Gregory]

I have attached a photo of the captioned crate taken 40 years ago.  It is painted black with white lettering.  The interior dimensions are 11" Width x 21 1/2" length X 10 1/2" high.  Each end is stenciled 10 ROUNDS / 20 PDR, RIFLE / SHELLS FIXED / 1861 / TIME FUZE."

Additionally, one side was stenciled "FROM / WATERVLIET / ARSENAL"

The other side was stenciled "U.S.  NO. 308 / COL. J. E. LEBLIE / CHIEF OF ARTY. / DEPT. OF NO., CA. / NEWBERN / NO., CA. / FROM N.Y. ARSENAL".

Regards - Bob Gregory

[mccaul]

I do not believe that the gunpowder bags were attached to the projectiles for one major reason.  If the gunpowder bags were attached they would need to have some sort of strap around them attaching them to the projectile.  The issue would be that when the projectile was loaded into the gun there would be no way to ensure that the strap did not block the touch hole (especially with a rifled projectile as it would rotate as it was pushed done the tube).  If the strap did block the touch hole the punch would not be able to puncture the gunpowder bag and then the fire from the igniter would not be able to set off the charge.  No reasonable artilleryman would accept such a system.  Thus, the gunpowder bag could not have any obstructions on it and because of that it would be next to impossible to attached the gunpowder bag to the projectile.

[Robert Gregory]

Hi McCall,

The year stenciled on the crate is 1861.  The West Point Foundry was about 120 miles down the Hudson River from the Watervliet Arsenal.  The early Parrotts had a sabot attached to the projectile that formed a groove, for securing a powder bag?  There is enough space in the crate for 10 projectiles plus much more (powder bags).  Do the math.  However, I don't think the projectile was united with the powder bag for shipping. 

Here's why!  This particular 20 Pdr. Parrott projectile may have been from 8 7/8 " to 10 1/8 " long.  The standard charge was 1 1/2 pounds of powder (see Civil War Ordnance: An Introduction, pg. 324).  The powder bag was about 3.5-4" long which would make the fixed ammunition approximately 13-14" long.  Ten of them just don't fit into the crate (period).  So the 10 projectiles were packed separately from the 10 powder bags.  How, I do not know.  10 can be divided in one way 2x5.  The inside dimensions do not support any configuration of projectiles and powder bags that I can think of.  However, spherical ammunition was packed tightly into the crate.

What's important to note is that the definition of "fixed" rifle ammunition has changed from that of "fixed" spherical ammunition which was one complete unit.  "Fixed" here, means that 10 projectiles and 10 powder bags were shipped together in the same crate.  Amen!   Regards - Bob Gregory

[joevann]

Thank you Mr. Gregory for your illuminating photographs.  As you stated in your last sentence the term 'fixed' changed meaning over the years as did many ordnance terms.  In spherical ammunition, it means the projectile is strapped to a sabot and either the powder charge is attached to the sabot, or (in the case of larger projectile) not attached but present in the crate for attachment.  In the case of rifled muzzle-loading projectiles, it changed to mean everything needed to fire the gun was in the crate.  In modern, breech-loading ammunition, 'fixed' means the projectile is attached to a cartridge case with a built-in primer.  Terms do change with usage over time.  'Bouche' devolved into 'bushing'.  I'm not arguing with you at all, and neither, I believe, is Dr. McCaul.

[John D. Bartleson Jr.]

My thanks to Bob, Joe and Pete and Ed  for presenting all the views that have been discussed during this thread.
The following question has arisen from the unyielding opinions and in some cases, proof positive on both sides.
We all realize that projectiles having the cartridge case or bag attached to the projectile makes loading in the cannon moreefficient and much faster in that a step in loading is eliminated.
Now, wy didn't the arsenals make ALL projectiles 'fixed" ammnition"?  Some projectiles  have no provisions to tie on a powder bag,  while a few others like the small Mullane and one or two Archers,  have apparent "tie rings" sic.
     To my knowledge no member has seen an unfired, non-dug shell with a complete powder attached.  None of the artillery manuals address assembly procedures,  nor any other descriptions of directing personnel on attaching such bags.  Not even a description to guide field implimentation to assmble bag to shell.
   Lastly, I hope no collector ties a powder bag to a shell to pass it off for sale as "fixed ammo".
Best Regards,
John
     

[John D. Bartleson Jr.]

To all,
  I have read in either Holley or Gibbons that spherical shells having powder bags attached to their sabots  have a paper cylinder and end cap covering the bag.  Are they removed prior to loading?
  I presume the cyhlinder and cap were placed on the bag to protect it from damage during shipping and handling.
Regards,
John