Bullet and Shell Civil War Projectiles Forum
Relic Discussion => Artillery => Topic started by: tomcrawford on December 06, 2014, 04:23:19 PM
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UPDATED with photos of the explosive device... Live Civil War artillery found at SC construction site
Photos & details: http://www.wbtw.com/story/27537792/bomb
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Sad that nobody will listen to reason. If it hasn't blown up for over 150 years....
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Hello,
At the link posted above:
http://www.wbtw.com/story/27537792/bomb
there are now more images which clearly show it to be a 200-lber Parrott shell. I have it on word of mouth that it wasn't destroyed but in fact saved and I am trying to confirm that.
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I certainly hope that is the case. A shell from the swamp angel is significant and should be saved. Carl should clean it
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I don't think anyone cleans as well as you and such an important relic needs to be done by the best! Plus Mike has worn out my back at Franklin so not sure it is up to a shell this big for a while. :)
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I have just got off the phone, talking to an Air Force EOD Sgt, who informed me that the shell will be "saved". This was after I talked to the Charleston police, who informed me that the shell had already been blown up. They, the AF, are talking to a Marine EOD unit, who are interested in inerting the shell so that it can be cleaned and conserved. I know the Marines who are involved here, and am trying to get the shell down to the Lab for conservation after they have carefully "drilled it". We will then have to figure out where the shell goes for public display. I hope to have some images before the end of the day, if so, I will share here.
BTW - according to the EOD Sgt, the shell is most likely an 8" Parrot, with a brass sabot. I was told there were no grooves in the sabot, which is currently missing, so it is most likely an unfired shell. I am in the process of trying to locate the sabot.
Hopefully, we can save another small piece of history - Preserving our Past, for our Future!
Jim J.
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you will never find the sabot. Most Parrotts threw the sabot when fired so it is most likely in the marsh of Morris Island. That is good news that it will be saved. Thanks for the update
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Divedigger, your comment about the sabot is noted - "Most Parrotts threw the sabot when fired." This is often the case, but there is more to the Charleston shell story. Evidently there was a sabot with the shell, that was collected as a souvenir by one of the "powers that be". I am in the process of trying to track down one of the first images taken of the shell, that I am told shows a partial brass sabot. It was allowed to go, as it was not deemed hazardous.
Jim J.
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Yes, thanks very much for the update and very glad that it has been saved from a shape charge. Very good to hear.
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Well done Jim. if the Police do't have it nor the EOD team then check city hall.
Do not offer it to Fort Sump;ter and they were not interested when I phoned them.
Les Jenson, Curator of the West Point museum was also seeking it
John
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well done Jim and John. Thanks for both of your effort
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A quick update on this shell. A Marine EOD unit now has possession of the shell, and will hopefully inert it in the near future. They have also managed to get ahold of the brass sabot, that was taken as a souvenir by a third party. If all goes well and according to plan, I will take possession of the shell and conserve it. I will be looking at the fuze closely, as a number of people would like to know it's condition regarding why it failed. We also have to figure out where it goes after conservation, as I do not yet know who really "owns" the shell.
Jim J.
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Jim,
Les Jensen, Curator of the West Point Museum is interested in obtaining it for display. Is the sabot now with the shell? Does it show signs of firing?
Regards,
Johhn
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Okay, at long last some new images.
(http://i1273.photobucket.com/albums/y420/crltamuedu/CP%20shell_zpsohehsfgh.jpg) (http://s1273.photobucket.com/user/crltamuedu/media/CP%20shell_zpsohehsfgh.jpg.html)
Here is another image of the shell when she was found.
(http://i1273.photobucket.com/albums/y420/crltamuedu/CP%20fuze_zpskc85hbo7.jpg) (http://s1273.photobucket.com/user/crltamuedu/media/CP%20fuze_zpskc85hbo7.jpg.html)
This is a close up view of the zinc percussion fuse.
(http://i1273.photobucket.com/albums/y420/crltamuedu/CP%20sabot_zps0htd8zf2.jpg) (http://s1273.photobucket.com/user/crltamuedu/media/CP%20sabot_zps0htd8zf2.jpg.html)
This is the best image that I have of the sabot, it is distorted and they tell me the diameter is 10". If one takes a 7" ring and makes an oval, the long measurement can easily be 10"! More importantly, the sabot is now with the shell. To my eye, it looks as though it has been fired - there are rifling grooves in the sabot.
The plan is the Marines at Ft. Beaufort will inert the shell, and then I will conserve it at the Lab and return it to a local museum (TBD!). I am not interested in keeping it, just seeing that it is conserved for prosperity.
Comments are appreciated.
Jim J.
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Looks to me from the images to be an 8-inch short pattern Parrott. That would make the circumference to be about 12.5 inches. While it could be a 300-lber (10-inch caliber) it doesn't appear that big to me but that may be due to the angle of the image. Those 300-lbers look enormous and would never be mistaken for a 200-lber! The 200-lber short is about 135 pounds (long about 155) while the 300-lber is 250 pounds. It looks like it might have used the zinc percussion fuse.
Thank you very much for your assistance in saving it. The iron looks pretty decent on it.
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Carl,
Thank you for the comments. Do you by any chance know the dimensions and weight on the 200 & 300 pound Parrott rounds. The EOD guys have informed me that they think it is a 7" Parrott, I will have to ask them to measure the circumference of the sabot. This will be a good way of determining the size of the shell, even though it is now oval shaped. It will also be interesting to see the condition of the fuze up close. We have lost some to corrosion, galvanic action to the iron in the shell. Col. JB is interested to know if any melting occurred during the shell's flight, so we have some research to do!
Regards, Jim J.
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Jim,
It might shed some light on the subject if someone would measure the perimeter (length) of the sabot, invoke some Pi, and see what happens.???????
Would someone who knows more about math than I do please chime in?!
THX. All this FWIW.
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The width of the sabot get progressively wider from 6.4, 8, 10 inch shells.
John
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"Selma Hunter"
Thanks for the reply. Forgive me but I cannot resist - perimeter (length) = circumference. You are on the ball, as this measurement will tell us what we want to know! ;)
Jim J.
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My Pleasure, Sir!
3 quarters of graphics in a technical management discipline at a major university school of engineering wasn't all a waste after all!
If anyone wants a pi tape (direct read diameter tape) see me at the Marietta show. I have a few left to sell. These read to 1/64 th of an inch as I recall
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The circumference (length around the shell) is the diameter time Pi (3.14). So an 8-inch 200-lber is 8 x 3.14 or about 25.1 inches. I used the radius and not the diameter on my earlier posting which his why I got the incorrect number of 12.5 inches. My apologies. For a 10-inch 300-lber the circumference would be 3.14 x 10 or 31.4 inches. I'll measure a 200-lber when I get a chance. I don't have a 300-lber to measure as they are exceedingly rare so a hard one to come by.
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The circumference of a 200# Parrot Shell by my measurement is 25.1 inches.
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Please pardon the following technical nitpicking... I seem to be becoming brother Lockridge's apprentice at curmudgeonliness.
In doing circumference calculations of muzzle-loading projectiles, let's not forget that due to the need for windage their body diameter is always a bit smaller than the cannon's bore diameter. If the Charleston shell is a 10-inch caliber Parrott shell its body diameter would be 3.14 x 9.90 inches, which calculates to 31.086 inches.
Regards,
Pete
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I think Carl was transferring the old theory of "horseshoes and hand grenades" to artillery measurements.....close counts. :D
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is windage different for every shell, or is it always the same amount?
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All,
The standard of the day was 20/100ths, regardless.
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20/100? If my math is correct thats 0.2". Were the tubes slightly bigger than what we say when classifying a shell for example 3.3". if I add .2 to some of my shell diameters, seems they would not fit, yet I'm sure a couple are 3.3's. Sorry I know for many this is "basic" but I've been collecting for patterns and just started measuring, and recently find that some seem "off" in measurements for what I thought they were.
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Ah, Gentlemen, the plot thickens! The AirForce EOD has just informed me that the circumference of the sabot is about 26.6". They do admit that the sabot is distorted, and it is not easy to measure accurately. So, I will make a WAG here and say that we are most likely dealing with an 8" - 200 pdr Parrott shell - Thank you Carl, Redbob and others for your information. Yes, I know the measurement is more than the usual 25.1, but I think that 5% error in the crude measuring is acceptable for an ID.
The transfer of the CSS Georgia shells has been delayed, so the Marines at Beaufort will be inerting our shells most likely in September - along with this individual! I am just going to have to wait a little longer before I see it.
Regards,
Jim J.
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Thanks Jim for your intervention in this matter and for making arrangements for the inertiing process and for its preservation.
Regards,
John
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I could measure my 300 pounder, but I can't find my circumference tape!
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The odds are the shell that was fired into Charleston, is an 8" Parrott round. We all know that there were two different weights for these rounds, the 150# and the 200#. Please could somebody let me know the two differing length measurements for these shells, so that I will know what round we have to inert. There is also the interesting question as to whether or not we have an incendiary shell. The base of the shell is concreted and covered with mud/clay, so there is no quick observation to make to see if there is the head of a base plug? Please correct me if I am wrong here, but I assume the large incendiary shells were filled through the base plug and not a side plug? This is something that I would like to know before inerting, as if it is an incendiary shell - the position of the hole(s) changes. The EOD guys are loath to remove any concretion from the outside, until the shell has been inerted - for safety reasons.
Your comments are appreciated as always.
Jim J.
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Jim,
It should be okay to gently remove the concretions from the base, however if they chose not to then they can use their small IED radiograph equipment to x-ray the growth.
I recall, from Abbot plates that there is one type of Parrott that has an upper chamber cast into the upper portion to hold the powder after the lower chamber has been filled with the incendiary mix. Hmm, on second thought after looking again at the plates that they were smaller calibers and information to have in your file. The large caliber should be constructed in the same manner. I cleaned several 6.4 inch incendiary shells while at EODU#2 in Charleston, SC that were dug up during construction.
Regards,
John
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John,
You are wonderful source of information, Thank you! Looking at your drawing (even though it is for a 9 pdr), it becomes very apparent that we have an interesting dilemma as to where one drills an inerting hole. One needs to intersect the midline of the "upper" powder chamber, so as to facilitate cleaning the interior cavity. Once the powder is removed, we can safely sample the incendiary chamber and figure out the composition of the liquid (?). However, with different sized shells the wall thickness varies, and the interior separating wall can be located higher or lower in the shell. I would like to minimize the number of holes we drill to one, and then I can assess the base bolt and possibly remove it.!
So, if any of you have an 8" incendiary shell hidden away, please let me know where the interior wall is located.
Many Thanks in advance.
Jim J.
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I believe that both the 6.4" and the 8" Parrot Incendiary Shells came in both single and double cavity models, I say this because I have a 6.4" that is only a single cavity. If they are a single cavity, am I correct in thinking that the incendiary mixture was mixed with the black powder?
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From the CivilWarArtillery.com site the differing Parrott lengths are:
200-lber Short Pattern: 16.5 Inches (http://civilwarartillery.com/hap/page192.htm)
200-lber Long Pattern: 19.75 Inches (http://civilwarartillery.com/hap/page193.htm)
300-lber: 23 Inches
I just bought a 200-lber short yesterday and it is maybe a bit over 16.5 inches tall. That length does not include the bolt in the bottom of the one I got.
I've never heard of any side plug in a Parrott shell; only fuse holes and bolts or rivets in the bottom.
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Jim,
somewhere, and it has been so long, I have heard, not a good reference, that a hole was cast in the partition partition was an open hole when the sand was removed. The incendiary mix was funneled in first, the hole plugged with a substance. probably wood, then the powder was measured in the top chamber through the fuse hole.
I normally don't post, I've heard "I heard". I want to say its from John Biemick, but I will call him to check.
It was Biemick, John advised Sam White about the plugged partition and it was in a 6.4 inch shell (100 pdr..). .John should publish his two books on C.S.A. and U.S. riflled ordnance. We would like images of the fuze/fuse to determine which, as not too many of the incendiary shells survived.
The Marines will probably have to drill from the side just below the to get at the black powder and a second hole along side the bolt to determine if the contents is powder or the mix. It is also a chance that the incendiary mix has cotton waste to assist in scattering the mix and in its burning. I'll bet he has powder from to to bottom. the mix, when filled with cotton is a job to clean out.
The illustration shows the original purpose of the base hole.
Thanks.
Regards,
John
P.S. John might be able to answer your question about the partition's position.
P.P.S. mixing black powder with the mix would destroy its normal function to burn than if it were dry.
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Looking closely at the nose-view image that Jim posted of the 200-lber in question, it certainly appears to me to be the remains of a one-piece percussion fuse. You can make out the line where the threads are for the center cap.
In Jack Bell's heavy artillery book, he shows a percussion fuse on both the 100-lber and 200-lber incendiary shells. Does anyone know of an incendiary shell with a time fuse?
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Jim,
Why the two holes drilled on each side of the percussion fuze??
John
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Thanks to all for the slew of information on the shell. Having to wait another week to ten days is killing me. The Air Force EOD still have to transfer the shell to the Marines at Ft. Beaufort, and this is supposed to happen soon. I have been invited up to watch the inerting, so I will take lots of photo's - and post.
John / Bart, the two holes on either side of the fuze are "dimples" or depressions in the concretion. The EOD guys have not attempted any drilling.
Carl, the "short" version of the 8" round, would that be the 150# Naval shell, as opposed to the long 200# Army shell?
Will take note of the potential cotton, and have the interior sampled and analyzed.
Thanks again,
Jim J.
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To all,
It was recently discussed how to tell the size of a Parrott shell by measuring the circumstance. Here is a quicker way: by measuring the width of the band base to tip of the band projection.
100 pdr base to tip - 1.34 inches
200 pdr base to tip - 1.58 inches
300 pdr base to tip - 2.00 inches
Compliments of Skip Keith of James Island, SC
Regards,
John
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Hello J9im,
this post started in December 2014, is the shell finished?
Regards,
John
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Concur, it should clean up nicely. Good job saving it!
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John - Bart, This shell has been a real challenge in many ways. The shell is currently still with the Air Force EOD team in Charleston, who are in the process of transferring it to the Marines at Ft. Beaufort. They have agreed to inert it, and pass it on to the Lab where I work for conservation. As soon as I get my hands on it, I will post pictures and give an accurate description of the shell and fuze.
Jim J.
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I guess everything changes. they have had enough time to eat it.:)
John