Bullet and Shell Civil War Projectiles Forum
Relic Discussion => Artillery => Topic started by: alwion on May 24, 2013, 01:19:48 PM
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This looks similar to a CW shell, like a sleeved read? but I don't see any way to attach a sabot? What is it?
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Civil-War-era-6pdr-artillery-shell-/200926564755?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2ec8281193
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Sir:
I certainly do not recognize it as a known projectile from the ACW.
Regards,
John
::)
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Interesting. Very poorly manufactured. No sabot or sabot attachment design which is odd for a pointed projectile of the era. No remnant of a bolt on the bottom.
I can't see any signs of milling on the sleeve.
I have no idea.
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Beats me.
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Of course, precise measurements of its diameter and weight are sorely needed. But meanwhile, I see some things which indicate it is not a civil war artllery shell, and may not be a projectile at all.
1- Although it resembles an "unfinished" shell, the casting's "fuzehole" has been reamed and threaded. Seems odd to put that much finishing-labor into an artillery shell without doing anything to the rest of the body.
2- Civil war shells which use a screw-in fuze which has a "lip" almost always have a flat rim encircling the fuzehole -- in order to pinch an o-ring gasket under the fuze's lip. But the edge of the hole on this object is sharp-pointed.
3- The threading as seen in the photo appears to be VERY fine-gauge. I can't think of any civil war fuze which has such small threads.
One other note:
There are only two possible identifications for this being a civil war shell which is cast with no sabot on its completely-flat iron base... an unfinished Tennessee-sabot shell or a Brooke ratchet-plate sabot shell. Both of those varieties have a significant dome in the iron at the bottom of their powder-cavity, to accomodate the sabot attachment bolt. We need to know whether or not this object's cavity has that dome.
Regards,
Pete
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My guess is that the fuze hole is indeed a hole for a fuze.
I wonder if it could be some kind of explosive device used for other purposes - mining, rock removal, etc.
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I emailed for more detailed info. will post if I get a reply
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Spanish American period? An educated guess, certainly pre WWI.
Mark
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Reply from the seller with more info
The shell weights 6.25 pounds, is 7 inches long, and 3.25 inches wide. The inside base looks rounded, or dome shaped, and I measured the inside power chamber from the inside bottom base up to the upper most threaded edge for the fuze and that is 6.5 inches. Hope all this helps, thanks,Matt
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Pete & All -
As to possible "Brooke ratchet-sabot" provenance I would think not. To the best of my knowledge (and limited machining/metal working experience) Brooke projectiles were all cast with the ratchets. Machining those flukes or vanes after the fact would be most difficult and highly unlikely. All I have seen have been cast and none have shown indications of machining.
IMHO.
Bill
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What ever it is it sold for $203.50
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sir;
Rember P.t. Barnum's quote.
Whatever it is it is not ACW, finished or unfinished.
John
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I know this is an old posting, but did anybody even consider IMPORTED shells??
This is an early pattern 1850's British ARMSTRONG shell for a 6 or 9 pounder, it was supposed to have a LEAD sleave around most of its body for the ability to catch on the guns rifling. I am familar with some types of Armstrong shells that were used in the CW, but not sure if this pattern was used a lot, or very little.
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Sir;
The Royal Artillery used two lead coated projectiles in case, shell and solid design
The Armstrong shell that was lead coated bearing the EOC mark at its ogive was indeed an Armstrong and made at his Elswick Ordnance Company.
I have only seden it as an EOC, Whereas the common shell was made at the Woolwich arsenal but had the same outward appearance with the addition of the R.L. (royal Laboratory) stamped into the lead. It was easily recognized from the shrapnel (case shot) by the presence of the large brass fuze adapter.
The shrapnel or case shot as we term it was a combination shrapnel, shell or unfuzed as a solid shot. The explosive loaded shells could be found with a shipping plug with a No. 2 percussion fuze below or a No 22 Time fuze with a No. 2 below.
The shell on eBay has a forward bearing band. The lead coated projectiles engaged the rifling from ogive to base and did not require a forward bearing surface.
Cheers,
John
(http://i1069.photobucket.com/albums/u465/jbart2/BritishWoolwich12pdrCommonShellbrassfuzeadapter_zpsff3eeff0.jpg) (http://s1069.photobucket.com/user/jbart2/media/BritishWoolwich12pdrCommonShellbrassfuzeadapter_zpsff3eeff0.jpg.html)
(http://i1069.photobucket.com/albums/u465/jbart2/British12pdrRBCaseShot_zps121746c8.jpg) (http://s1069.photobucket.com/user/jbart2/media/British12pdrRBCaseShot_zps121746c8.jpg.html)
(http://i1069.photobucket.com/albums/u465/jbart2/British12pdrRBLShellCombinationPer-Time_zps52b39463.jpg) (http://s1069.photobucket.com/user/jbart2/media/British12pdrRBLShellCombinationPer-Time_zps52b39463.jpg.html)
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Here is a link to what I found. Scroll down the link and you will see the exact shell........only with the lead covering.
http://www.submerged.co.uk/breach-and-muzzel-loaders.php
Either way, the shell on ebay would have that lead covering, but the real interest is was this pattern shell used in the Civil War?
Was it an early unpopular short term use import?
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Sir,
The shell you provided a link to is the same as the three shell illustrations I have provided above.
Below is an external view of the common shell.
Cheers,
John
(http://i1069.photobucket.com/albums/u465/jbart2/BritishLeadCoatedShellbyWoolwich_zps8d2edb8f.jpg) (http://s1069.photobucket.com/user/jbart2/media/BritishLeadCoatedShellbyWoolwich_zps8d2edb8f.jpg.html)
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The computer illustrations provided were reviewed by myself, but they lack a nomenclature form where in wording, it would point out the body being Iron, with a lead covering over 3/4 of it. I provided the link with a primary photo of the shell to make sure we both were understanding one another. Sorry for the misunderstanding.
However despite taking upon myself to figure out what this was, the key question that still remains unanswered is whether or not this pattern of shell was used in the Civil War by the North or South.......has it been documented, or yet to be??
As of now I haven't been able to locate a source that it has.
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The lead coated ones were never used here.
Anyone who hasn't been under a rock for the last 10 years knows a lot of eBay projectiles are complete crap so lets not waste our time trying to find a solution for the problem caused by folks putting up stuff as ACW that noone has ever seen over here before. There are other forums dedicated to the Quixotic quest of bringing truth and justice to eBay and we are not here to jump in the death spiral of being an eBay vetting website where crackpot sellers can come justify their junk and then threaten everyone who doesn't aid and abet their malfeasances.
There were some field caliber Armstrongs brought over that had the copper studs in the sides that the South imported. They made it just before the surrender and were never fired in anger. Many of the shells and fuses were buried along the retreat route.
If you go to Jack Melton's website http://civilwarartillery.com/ and search under "Sir Armstrong" you can read more about these.