MM-111/TT-71/RBTRF IV 228

[ETEX]

The MM-111 with the other references listed in the subject line has always interested/puzzled me. I have only seen a couple for sale and the ones I have seen appeared to be nondug. I have heard several folks refer to this bullet as closely resembling the 105/106 but the nose doesn't even come close and the grooves are somewhat similar to the MM-105 but I don't see the resemblance personally. The TT handbook photo shows a bullet with a patina but the MM bullet doesn't to appear to have been dug. After comparing the MM with bullet number 228 the appearance is very close with the main difference I see the lowest ring portion of the base in bullet 228 is rounded out more and is not the height of the bullet in the MM. This bullet has been listed as for an unknown carbine and a southern bullet. I don't have a clue on this bullet. Someone enlighten me on this bullet and does the MM-111 appear to be pewter to yall as it does to me. Wes this is also in response to your listing of the MM taxonomy. You are not the only one I have heard mention a somewhat close appearance to the 105/110 and 106/107.

[emike123]

Bill E. has one of thesde he's very proud of.  I'll drop him an eMail and try to get him to chime in on this post and the others.

[ETEX]

Wes, can you post a photo of the bullet you acquired and do you have a dig location?

[ETEX]

Wes, thanks for the photo. I do not know the origin of the MM-111 and I have also seen one very similar to yours with the more tipped nose like the MM-111 and also with a very slight dish base. I don't know what got me on this topic other than seeing the bullet in RBTRF IV.  Again thanks for the photo and I am hoping some other forum members will jump in on this topic. It appears there may be several mould variants of this bullet and with it listed and photographed in the MM, TT and RBTRF IV the bullet appears to being found in the US. Lets hope some others will post photos of the bullet and get some information on this bullet from other forum and guests bullet guru's.

[emike123]

I do not believe those bullets are MM111.  Hopefully, Bill Ewing will post up his as it is a dead ringer for the MM111 in the book.  Several of us saw it a few years back at Nashville.

Bullets similar to these have come from Italy.  A couple were sold on eBay as being Italian War of Independence Bullets.  Unfortunately it was so long ago these links have expired

http://cgi.ebay.com/Italian-War-Independance-Bullet-/280649377299?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item415801a613
 
http://cgi.ebay.com/Italian-War-Independance-Bullet-/280649375768?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item415801a018

I am not sure what they are, but the date associated with the eBay bullets was, if I recall correctly, slightly post Civil War.

That said, I also know that Nick Peruit recently had one of these that was dug in the US somewhere.  It is still on his site in the bullet section (#35).

[emike123]

Here's a thread where MM111 was discussed archived off the old, old forum:

http://cwbullet.org/bullet-relic-forum/archive/index.php/t-3344.html


Unfortunately, I do not see a picture

[ETEX]

Mike, have you looked at bullet 228 in RBTRF IV. It has the same pointed nose and profile of the MM-111 with the exception of the lowest ring. That was a great post from the old forum. I have never seen Gary grovel over a bullet like this one. He had it bad for wanting one.

[misipirelichtr]

That said, I also know that Nick Peruit recently had one of these that was dug in the US somewhere.  It is still on his site in the bullet section (#35). 

I talked at length with Nick about the "foreign style" bullet posted on his web site pictured in the post above.  He was absolutely certain that it was recovered from a CS camp in Virginia - he trusted the digger he bought it from to be truthful in provance.  Nick felt it resembled the MM 487 Von Lenke (without the dowel).  He too believed it was from a foreign bullet and he did mention the Italian War which did start in 1859 if memory serves correctly; but he believed it had somehow made it to a Confederate soldier in Virginia.  He also recounted it was the second of its type he had seen recovered in the  US.  It may be post CW, but after talking with Nick, I know he was convinced it was indeed here during the early CW years.

I don't know much about MM 487 but I sure can see where Nick sees a resemblence

[misipirelichtr]

correction - first Italian War for Independence was 1848-49; the second Italian War of Independence started in 1859 and this was the one Nick was making reference to.

[acwbullets]

The bullet listed on Nick's site is from the Franco Prussian War. It is Austrian produced but they were mainly used in the Franco Prussian War as that is where most of them turn up.

[Daveslem]

I'm no expert on any CW topic so excuse me if I step on anyone's toes. That's not my objective. Seems to me that one or two or even ten examples of a "rare" bullet found on a CW site doesn't make it CW, to me. Tons of foreigners fought in the war, bringing with them all sorts of longarms and pistols and their variant ammo. Could be these rare bullets were shot by a farmer before or after the war. Even if shot during the war it's just an oddity to me, sure it's rare but just a few examples doesn't make it CW. Trans-Miss bullets, while both odd and also rare, are found in enough camps and battle sites to be truly CW. I understand the desire for the digger or the guy who buys one of these rare bullets to pronounce how rare it is, but to me it's no big deal, just a fluke or oddity. Just my two cents worth.

[tom buckley]

Dave,
I agree 100%.

[misipirelichtr]

Dave, for sure not stepping on my toes and anyway, I've got a thick hide  .  I also agree - just because it is found in a CW site does not automatically make it CW.  I was just passing along comments made firsthand to me by Nick that he felt the bullet did come from an early war CS Camp and he felt a soldier had it for whatever reason.  My comments were more to add to the discussion that the bullet could have been early enough to have been used during the war. 

Ian, thanks for the additional clarification on the bullet.  I was certainly intrigued when I saw it on Nick's site to want to learn more about it.  And thanks to this forum, I am learning!

[ETEX]

I appreciate all the input on this thread. I agree with Mike and Dave on this bullet and Ian thanks on the information on the use of this bullet.

[njdigger]

I was going thru my back issues of North South Trader Civil War magazine and came upon an article by Bill Ewing titled Myths, Mysteries & Facts, Lets Talk  Bullets. There is a nice large picture of MM111 and in the article says the bullet was found in Western WV. It is in issue #2 Vol.28 from 2001. There are also 35 other bullets with pictures that have the  MM ID and with the authors thoughts on what  their ID should be. Great article