3 inch British rifling with three grooves;

[John D. Bartleson Jr.]

To all,
    A question for the cannon experts:   Has anyone seen a 3 inch British rifled cannon having just three grooves?
Each groove has a high and low level.  Developed by the Royal Arsenal at Woolwich, the rifling replaced the projectiles that were covered with lead and replaced them with 3 rows of 2 copper studs.
     I am trying determine if this rifling system made it to the states.
Regards,
John

[redbob]

I have a 3"Armstrong shell that has the 3 rows of 2 copper lugs on it's side. It was said to have been  dug at Farmville, Virginia on Lee's Route to Appomattox.

[John D. Bartleson Jr.]

I know, I had two of them but I brought them back from Shoeburyness, UK.
People have a tendancy to claim a providence so as to make it right with our Civil War period.
  If yours was dug. you probably have the only one.
Do you know if the waring sides had such a rifle?
   BTW, for your information the copper studded shell system was copied from the French by the Woolwich Arsenal.  The Ordance Department let manufacturing contracts to wm. Armstrong to make these shells and Armstrong placed his EOC on their ogive.
Those made at the Arsenal have an R arrow L stamped in their base. They were not invented by Armstrong but by the Woolwich Arsenal and are called the "Woolwich System" (Treatise on Ammunition 1870.)
Regards,
John

[redbob]

Then I guess that PT Barnum was right when he said that there was a sucker born every minute...

[joevann]

Yes.  The British 7pdr Mk I, II, III & 9 pdr MK I guns were both 3" caliber and had 3 grooves for the bolt system.  And they were ALL post-ACW production.  In fact the first were produced in 1865 for service in India.  Source: 1872   A TEXT-BOOK OF THE CONSTRUCTION AND MANUFACTURE OF THE RIFLED ORDNANCE IN THE BRITISH SERVICE   FRANC S. STONEY & CHARLES JONES   H.M STATIONARY OFFICE   LONDON

[John D. Bartleson Jr.]

Thank you Joe.  As a matter of fact I.A.W. the Treatise on Ammunition 1870 states that trials at Shoeburyness did not finalize until July 1865 so they hardly made it to the U.S. in time for our ACW.
That is why I have asked if any of our tube experts have seen a British 3 inch 3 groove rifle here in America.
Regards,
John
P.S. Joe would you send me that reference you quoted? thanks

[John D. Bartleson Jr.]

Redbob, on the contrary, depending on much you had to pay for it, you have a nice specimen of the British.  can you post a photo of yours.   have you check the studs for a month/years stamp?
Is yours fuzed externally or have a nose plug?  Have you removed the plug to check for the No. 2 percussion fuze and burster? Below is an excerpt from Jack Bell's book on Heavy Artillery in the Armstrong chapter.  This accounts for the studded projectiles on display at West Point:
Regards,
John
"Confederate agents in London purchased a 10-inch and two 8-inch Armstrong rifles
ARMSTRONG 121
and projectiles for the CSS Stonewall, a formidable ironclad ram built in France.10 Because
of various embargoes, the Stonewall left Spain only on March 24, 1865, and got only as
far as Havana by the end of the war.11 The Cuban government turned the Stonewall over
the U.S. government in November 1865. The Stonewall was also armed with one 10-inch
(300-pounder) Armstrong rifle and two 8-inch (150-pounder) Armstrong rifles.12 Based
on projectile documentation, the Stonewall may also have been armed with one or more
6.4-inch Armstrong rifles.
On board the Stonewall were the best types of Armstrong’s projectiles. These are
documented in this book. Had the Stonewall reached the western Atlantic before the war
ended, it could have had a devastating impact on both the blockading fleet and the
Monitor-type gunboats. As fate would have it, the Stonewall arrived in Havana for refueling
after the war ended."

[redbob]

I have found two references to the Armstrong 3"/12# rifles in the Civil War:

1. Porter Alexander wrote: "Of the Armstrong shunt-guns, six were obtained just before the close of the war and they were never tried in the field. They were muzzle-loaders and nothing could exceed their accuracy and the perfection of their ammunition". They were however used in a competetion vs. 2.75"/12# Whitworths and they proved to be more accurate than the Whitworth.

2. There is a 3"/12# Armstrong muzzle-loader on display as a captured trophy at West Point. Records state that it was manufactured in 1864.

I have two Armstrong style shells, a 2.5" with 3 rows of 2 lead lugs and a 3" with 3 rows of 2 each copper lugs. The 3" is dug and is only in fair condition without a fuze or underplug.

[scottfromgeorgia]

i have two of these shells from Sam White, dug at the escape route from Petersburg.

[redbob]

In the West Point Museum, there is also an Armstrong 3" Segmented Shunt Shell-British length 7.38" Remarks: Six brass studs-could be used as case, cannister or solid and a Armstrong 3" Common Shunt Shell, British Length 9.4". Remarks: nine brass studs. Ripley p 336. 

[joevann]

According to the quote from Hazlett,Olmstead, and Parks' book, there is ample evidence that a very few Armstrong muzzleloaders were obtained by the Confederate's just prior to the end of the war, and a single surviving example of the gun is in the West point collection.  To my knowledge, all recoveries have been in unfired condition.  The Elswick plant being a private concern, this is highly probable, but the pattern was not adopted by the British Government until the end of the ACW.  I am not a collector, but I suspect some of the shells of this type that are in the collectors' market never reached these shores until the Grand Army of the Republic and the United Confederate Veterans were well established and prominent organizations, and in some cases, after they had been dissolved for lack of elegible members.

[redbob]

I'll agree, I just hate to admit that I've been bamboozled; and from a very reputable dealer at that.

[John D. Bartleson Jr.]

Redbob, post us some photos.  Could you reply to my questions about your shell?
Reegards,
John

[redbob]

Mine has no markings on it that I can see as the shell is very weathered/pitted, also it appears that a portion of the nose is gone and there are no internals within the shell-just an empty cavity. I'll be glad to have pictures; but I'll have to wait for my better half to do them. The smaller shell was sold to me as post war-possibly French(?).

[joevann]

The 1898 catalog of the West Point Museum does list the following:
226. 3-inch Confederate Armstrong cast-iron rifled gun•. (No description of rifling)
This gun has several re-enforces. At Fort Clinton

642. Armstrong shell. (No provenance or caliber)
Brass studs.

669. Armstrong shrapnel. (No provenance or caliber)
Brass studs.