Electrolysis

[callicles]

I am not trying to re-invent a topic.  The one thing I like about this site is that people here are patient with folks like me.

I am in the process of artillery projectile electrolysis (for those who follow this site, it is the bolt which Pete George identified as a 3.3" "Selma Disk Sabot Bolt" which I posted pictures of on this site for verification). I am following the recomendations that were previously posted here.  I went with the procedure mentioned here which involves copper, baking soda, water and a battery charger (I'm using the setting of 6 volt/6 amp -- that was as good as I could find, and the charger cost nearly $50.00).  I'm just hoping that all goes well with what I'm doing.

Now, I have particular projectile fragments that I'm fond of. I spoke with someone who mentioned that it might be possible to simply place iron into water for 30 days, after each day removing the water, then replenishing the water each day until the water is clear (which should take about 30 days).  It was my understanding that this sort of process will act in the same way as electrolysis.  I am aware of the 2 week boiling process.  But I'm not in a position to boil, in my house, an iron object -- and I never could discern whether that meant for every minute and hour of 2 weeks, or off-and-on for 2 weeks.  Whatever the case, has anyone heard of the 30 day "in water" theory?

Thanks

[CarlS]

No, never heard of it.    Sounds a little like zinc-n-lye.  You can read more on that on the link on the left side of our sale site at http://www.bulletandshell.com.  There are links there for cleaning with electrolysis and also zinc-n-lye.

Good luck on the Selma bolt.  Show us how it comes out.

Also note there are two aspects to the conservation of iron:  removing the rust off the shell and removing the salts absorbed by the shell.  Each takes different approaches.  Most people think of cleaning when they think of electrolysis but it is also a tool for salt removal although the process differs some.

[divedigger]

Dont leave that nice shell on 6 amps for very long. It wil cause the shell to "delaminate". At least that is what i call it. I dont even like 1 amp for over 2 days.

[pipedreamer65]

Agree it will "burn up" 

I use a DC power source with adjustment knobs for amperage.  I like sub 1 amp.  Slower but better.

[scottfromgeorgia]

I am also interested in an alternative to electrolysis. I have a number of smaller items I want to derust - such as the claw feet of a bathtub I found under my collards. Any thoughts?

[callicles]

I want to thank everyone for their responses.

Let me just throw out the "difficulties" I ran into with the electrolysis of my Selma.  I'm new to this -- please keep this in mind.

I bought a battery charger and all the the copper, etc..  I wanted the battery charger option of a 6 or 2 amp.  I paid for a battery charger which had the following options: 12 volt 6 amp, 12 volt 2 amp, 6 volt 6 amp.  My intention was to cook the shell on the 12 volt 2 amp setting. 

This is what I recognized:

1. I used a 5 gallon plastic bucket, filled with enough water to cover the bolt; added baking soda and dissolved it. Inserted the copper into the bucket (coiled -- fit perfectly). Set the battery charger to the 12 volt 2 amp setting; hooked the negative clamp to the scerw secured into my bolt.  The positive clamp was secured to the copper coming out of the water.  After an hour I saw bubbles forming on the bolt, around the copper, around the negative clamp.  That looked good to me.  But, I noticed that the charger's meter was not registering anything (made sense to me because battery chargers are meant for batteries, not ACW projectiles -- I let it slide).

2.  3 hours later, I check again and I see no bubbles at all, anywhere. I just leave it alone because I really don't know what I'm doing.  I assume the process is working, but I was concerned that I was no longer seeing bubbles (or "Fizz").  I let it go for 5 or 6 hours, but there  still is no fizz or bubbles anywhere.  I unplug the charger. Next day I replace the water and add new baking soda. I, again, check the process after an hour.  I see, once again bubbles forming on the projectile, on the copper, around the negative clamp.  I check it 3 hours later AGAIN and I see no "fizz" or bubles ANYWHERE. I, at this point, did something very stupid.  I simply placed my hand into the water to see if I could determine if there was an electrical current.  I felt nothing.  I groped the copper pipe;  I did everything I could do except connect the negative clamp against the positive clamp to see if I got a spark.  I did not do this. I checked the AC plug to make sure that plug was sending electricity to my charger.  I was getting electricity to the charger.

3. Then, I decided to read the instructions that came with my charger (Duh!!!).  The instructions seemed to "insinuate" that the  12 volt settings had an automatic cut-off.  At least that's how I interpreted it.  The instructions also stated that if a human were to use the 6 volt, 6 amp setting, there is no automatic cut off, that it would cook until the human disconnected the charger. After 30 something hours, I decided to switch my charger to the 6 volt/ 6 amp setting.  This is what I did.  I noticed bubbles and fizz forming on the bolt, and these bubbles remained for at least 6 hours before disappearing.  I just replaced the water and baking soda and did it all again (bubbles reappeared after this replacement).

4. So, I started  all over at the 6 volt 6 amp setting.  I let it go, replacing the water and soda every 8 hours or so with the copper sabot imerged.  I noticed though, that the copper sabot was not changhing colors. I began to question everything I did. Why? Because I was told that if you do electrolysis on a bolt WITH the copper sabot submerged, the color of the sabot will change color.  My Selma's sabot has not changed color at all.   I don't know what to make of that.

In concusion, I don't know that anything I did really worked properly.  Pete George, in his 1993 book, seems to indicate there is a way to determine if your projectile has been properly electrolosized (but in that part of his book he seemed to be talking about projectiles recovered from salt water).  Until I get confirmation on what I did was right or wrong, I'm done with the bolt. I will post pics of it here at a later date. 

Again, thanks to each and every person who has helped me.  And I hope my post, with more replies from you guys, will help people whom, in the future, decide to step off into this endeavor on their own like I did.

[CarlS]

Scott,

It would help to see the item to be cleaned and how rusty it is.  But in general your claw foot is a candidate for electrolysis and zinc-n-lye based on age and assuming found in your yard and not a well or creek bottom, etc..  If it is only surface rust then perhaps sand blasting will meet your need. 

[bigironman]

Newer battery chargers will only respond from a small electrical source to what they are trying to charge. Touch your battery clips together with the charger on and if they do not spark this charger is not for you. You need an older battery charger that sparks when clips are touched together. You need a resistor that will lower the amps to less than a 1/2 amp. Use a light bulb, 12 volt license plate bulb for a car. You need to solder the wires to the light bulb. No matter if it goes between positive or negative circuit. It will reduce the current going to the artifact. This process could care less if it is 6, 12 or 18 volts. This will still do hydrogen burn or cleaning while it is under long term electrolysis. Too much amperage on a salt water shell ( if this is a salt water shell) will cause damage between the core interface and the outside graphite layer.
Use soda ash not baking soda.  Sodium carbonate. Do not use sodium hydroxide. In 5 gallon bucket use 2 cups soda ash. The bubbles should not some up like ginger ale. Bubble action should be mild.
If you want to only hydrogen clean the shell the run it at 3 amps for only a few hours. This will not remove the chloride ions (salt)
I have been doing this over 25 years. Carl has seen my operation and understands well how this is done.
Do not boil the artifact, it does nothing. Once finished to remove soda ash let it sit outside and then coat with Life Guard or tannic acid. This will neutralize any remaining soda ash in the iron.
If you are running for 6 months change the solution every month.
Remember the top and the bottom of the projectile are not being run and you should turn it on its side and continue running for another 3 months.
Good luck.

[CarlS]

Callicles,

Yes I've seen BigIronMan's work and it is top notch.  He is very methodical with his work and gets great results.  Few if any are as good at removing the salts from those marsh shells as he is.

As mentioned in other threads there are about as many preferences on 'the best way to clean iron' as you cold ever imagine.  The best thing I can say is practice and learn.  Ask questions as you have here and then practice some more.

Some thoughts I'll pass in response to your post are:
- Copper works to line your bucket with but is not ideal as it can give metals an odd color/look.  I don't recall the reason and am too lazy to look it up but I suspect it has something to do with copper ions (negative charged copper molecules that were dissolved in the solution) adhering to the iron or similar.  Stainless is ideal as it won't break down as fast but any iron based metal will work.  Avoid galvanized metal.
- Critical to make sure that the shell or object doesn't touch or get close to the electrode/anode.  This essentially causes a short circuit and is not good for the power source.
- Use a good electrolyte (sodium carbonate, etc. in the water).   Pure water doesn't conduct electricity so you need to add a good amount of whatever you are using.
- Most modern battery chargers have overload protection on them so if the current runs too high it will cut off.  Normally after a bit they'll cut back on and then cut off, etc.  Keep the current low and you won't experience this.
- The rusty shell/iron typically has 3 parts: the cast iron of the body, a outer broken down layer (minimal to none on a very good condition shell) and the rust on the surface.  The rust on the surface is what you want to remove to make the shell look good and it typically comes off quickly and easily.  Some can be cleaned of all rust in a few hours; most need to run for a day at a minimum.  Of course there are exceptions. 
- The broken down outer layer you don't want to remove but you do want to pull the salts out of it.  If you run the shell too hot this will pull off or delaminate as DiverDigger described (I like that term).  The salt removal takes time; lots of time (measured in months) if they've soaked in deeply as with a marsh shell.  It should be clearly noted that salts don't just come from coastal environments.  Iron can also absorb these from creeks, low areas, etc.
- The wrought iron core for the most part won't be hurt by electrolysis no matter how hot you run it.
- Running it hot will not really speed up the salt removal.  That takes time.
- The light bulb added to the circuit is a good way to reduce the current and has the added benefit of giving an easy visual that the tank is running.
- You can also reduce the amperage the tank pulls by using a bigger tank.  The closer the iron is to the electrode/anode the less resistance the electrical path has and it will increase the amps.   So by moving it farther from the electrode/anode you decrease the amperage.
- You don't need a big battery charger.  You just have to set up a tank and shell that doesn't exceed the rating of your power source by adding the bulb and/or making the tank bigger.  I have in a pinch used a small DC source such as one which powers a phone, toy, etc.  There is no meter so you have to be careful.  If it is getting hot you are overusing it.

There are probably other things of note but it's late and time to catch some Z's.....

[redbob]

So, once they are clean; what do you recommend to coat them?

[CarlS]

That is very much a preference of the owner as any coating changes the color and finish.   People tend to coat them to give them certain look and to protect them from exterior moisture and salts from handling.   People use wax such as BriWax furniture polish of various colors, water and oil based polyurethane, varnishes, various types of rust inhibitor and I've even known people who soak them in oil.  I am sure there are other options.  I personally use satin polyurethane as it provides a complete seal against moisture (if applied correctly) and darkens the iron a bit which I like.  I typically don't coat the sabots (unless wrought iron) or fuses to provide a bit of contrast on the shell.

[divedigger]

I like the satin polyurethane as well but if the shell came out of the woods i like to spray it repeatedly with WD40.
 

[CarlS]

David,

I can't say I've used WD-40 to protect a shell.  I'll have to try it on one soon.

WD-40 is mostly minerals spirits but does have other protective secret ingredients that remain after drying:
    http://wd40.com/about-us/myths-legends-fun-facts/

[callicles]

Wow!!  Incredible advice.  I will print it all out and hope to find another shell in the future to implement all that was discussed here and the links I was pointed towards.

My problems:

1. I simply don't know if my electrolysis worked;

     a.  My battery charger may or may not have worked in the way I wanted it to work. (I could have over-cooked it.)

     b.  The copper sabot, although submerged, never changed color (I could have under-cooked it.)

2. I now will have to go  through the journey of discoverying how to determine if a shell has been properly electrolisized.  Pete George, in his 1993 edition book, writes how this might be done.  I guess I'll follow that unless someone here could give me advice on how that could be determined in a diferent way.

But, again, thanks so much.

[CarlS]

Hello,

Normally if you have rust on your shell and run it though electrolysis correctly you'll know if it works as much of the rust will fall off in the tank or come off when you touch it.  There should be bubbles rising from the shell the entire time it is running.  If you don't see bubbles then you have likely not got a good electrical connection to the shell or a good connection to the anode (your copper in this case).  The other thing that could be an issue is that you have the wires from the DC source hooked up backwards and you are cleaning the copper and not the shell.