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Author Topic: New proof of civil war rifled cannon "Fixed" shells  (Read 48578 times)

Pete George

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Re: New proof of civil war rifled cannon "Fixed" shells
« Reply #45 on: February 18, 2013, 04:27:18 PM »
Joevann wrote:
> With all due respect, Mr. George, I think you're chasing Sasquatch here.
> There simply is no physical evidence to support your assertion.

  Those statements indicate you have not followed my suggestion to read the past discussions of the subject in this forum. There have been several. Start with the discussions titled "Tie-ring Base shells", and "Those pesky little Xs."

The existing physical evidence includes:
1- iron-bodied shells which have an unmistakable Tie-ring on their base.
2- Mullane/Tennessee-sabot wooden dowels which have an unmistakable Tie-ring in the wood.
3- Excavated fired Read copper-sabot projectiles with twine and cloth preserved in the groove between the copper sabot and iron shell-body.
4- A cache of excavated unfired Schenkl shells with cloth "fossilized" onto the paper-mache sabot.
5- The many 3" Dyer sabots which have a long-armed iron sheetmetal "X" soldered onto the bottom of sabot. A large cache of unfired ones which was excavated at Fredericksburg included some showing cloth "fossilized" on the sabot around the iron sheetmetal X.

  So, in addition to the on-paper wartime documentations, can you explain away all five of the above-listed physical evidence examples? For a starter, is the Tie-ring groove in the iron base of several types of Rifled-cannon shells merely present for "decoration"?

  Please read all of the past discussions of the evidence (on-paper, and physical) for the existence of civil war "Fixed" ammunition for rifled cannons at this website, which are located in the Artillery category.

Regards,
Pete

John D. Bartleson Jr.

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Re: New proof of civil war rifled cannon "Fixed" shells
« Reply #46 on: February 18, 2013, 09:53:34 PM »
Dear Pete,  I feel slighted that you didn't comment on mine and Robert Gregory's recent posts.
    I for one do not intend to bore our members by rehashing all five of your points but will say this.
1. unmistakable, only in your opinion, no documentation or museum desplays.
2.Ditto as #1.
3.Hear say, lets see photos.
4.Hear say, produce photos
5.Just as many 3 inch Dyer projos that have the 'X" straps completely submerged.
 So lets see real photos of all this evidence.

Respectfully,
John

   
« Last Edit: February 18, 2013, 09:56:24 PM by John D. Bartleson Jr. »

emike123

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Re: New proof of civil war rifled cannon "Fixed" shells
« Reply #47 on: February 18, 2013, 11:03:51 PM »
1.  Here are two of the several types of iron shells with a tie ring in their bases.  I have placed the lead sabot back on one to show how the tie ring part extended below the lead band.



...and without the lead band for clarity:



As for #2, I believe Pete may be referring to some of the 3" Mullanes recovered from the Big Black River that show the tie ring groove still in the wood.  I have seen them but do not have one of them to photograph, but Carl & Jimmy may have or have seen them to verify the existence of the groove.  Not sure Jimmy if you know if remnants of powder bags were found with them in situ when recovered.

CarlS

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Re: New proof of civil war rifled cannon "Fixed" shells
« Reply #48 on: February 19, 2013, 06:09:25 AM »
I have one of the Mullanes from there but unfortunately it has no wooden block remaining below the sabot. 
Best,
Carl

John D. Bartleson Jr.

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Re: New proof of civil war rifled cannon "Fixed" shells
« Reply #49 on: February 19, 2013, 09:49:40 AM »
Great photos Mike, all we now is a Civil War document illustrating and stateing the grooves are for fastening powder cartridges, same goes for the wooden block on the Mullane which keeps the thin sabot from bending to the rear.
Best Regards,
John

joevann

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Re: New proof of civil war rifled cannon "Fixed" shells
« Reply #50 on: February 19, 2013, 10:41:35 AM »
Mike, are these not both CONFEDERATE Archer projectiles used only very early in the war as they were ineffective?
« Last Edit: February 19, 2013, 10:53:55 AM by joevann »

joevann

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Re: New proof of civil war rifled cannon "Fixed" shells
« Reply #51 on: February 19, 2013, 11:52:05 AM »
1- iron-bodied shells which have an unmistakable Tie-ring on their base.

Answer:  I will admit that some early Confederate Archer ans Federal James projectiles have what appears to be tie-on groove for attachment of cartridge bag.  However, this would be an engineering and ordnance no-no.  It would require the black powder propelling charge to be in direct contact with the body of the shell with no canvas between.  This is just asking for an early detonation while ramming home the shot during the loading process.  Isn’t it much more likely that the purpose was for the placement of a lubricated hemp rope to cut down on fouling of the rifling by the lead sabots?

2- Mullane/Tennessee-sabot wooden dowels which have an unmistakable Tie-ring in the wood.

Answer:  The wooden dowel was to aid in uniform expansion of the base.  Form follows function.  You are reversing this engineering axiom and assuming the function from the form.

3- Excavated fired Read copper-sabot projectiles with twine and cloth preserved in the groove between the copper sabot and iron shell-body.

Answer:  Again, lubrication.

4- A cache of excavated unfired Schenkl shells with cloth "fossilized" onto the paper-mache sabot.

Answer:  The formula for constructing the sabots for Schenkl projectiles was lost with Schenkl’s untimely death.  The exact composition of pulp, resins, and drying oils is still unknown and unduplicated.  The Boston Foundry, tried many methods to keep their post-Schenkl sabots from breaking apart or swelling during transportation.  One method was wrapping a sheet-metal band at the top and a sheet metal cup at the bottom.  Another was gluing a covering of cloth to better hold the laquer, rather than cartridge paper as was previously used.  Both methods gave less than satisfactory results without the original formula.

5- The many 3" Dyer sabots which have a long-armed iron sheetmetal "X" soldered onto the bottom of sabot. A large cache of unfired ones which was excavated at Fredericksburg included some showing cloth "fossilized" on the sabot around the iron sheetmetal X.

Answer:  It is well known that the sheet metal  ‘X’ was an attempt to keep the cast cup from stripping off in flight.  This is a severely undesirable occurrence when firing over the heads of friendly forces.  I have no comment on any ‘fossilized’  cloth.  I didn’t see it.

Now, your theory of rifled ammunition with cartridge bags attached is still interesting, and the idea MAY have been attempted on a very tiny experimental basis.  I can certainly see the advantage of loading in one motion.  However, if so, it must have been a failure as it wasn’t generally adopted and is not mentioned in the literature of any country.  As you are well aware, the United States was certainly NOT at the forefront of artillery development in the 19th century.

emike123

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Re: New proof of civil war rifled cannon "Fixed" shells
« Reply #52 on: February 19, 2013, 01:39:32 PM »
Mike, are these not both CONFEDERATE Archer projectiles used only very early in the war as they were ineffective?

Yes, but more accurately they should be called Archer/Burton projectiles.  Please read From Under Iron Eyelids chapter 10 and the Appendix with drawings of their projectile

Isn’t it much more likely that the purpose was for the placement of a lubricated hemp rope to cut down on fouling of the rifling by the lead sabots?

No, the diameter at the tie ring groove is 2" and the diametrer at the lead sabot is 3.3", much wider than would be filled with twine.  Also, from the period drawings in the letters from Burton to Archer (see book), the twine with tallow is wrapped around the lead sabot, not the base ring

joevann

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Re: New proof of civil war rifled cannon "Fixed" shells
« Reply #53 on: February 19, 2013, 02:06:18 PM »
I'll have to obtain a copy.  The vast majority of my reference library is primary rather than secondary sources.

John D. Bartleson Jr.

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Re: New proof of civil war rifled cannon "Fixed" shells
« Reply #54 on: February 19, 2013, 03:09:34 PM »
Mike,
   Burton's patent called for the sabot to be cordage over a wooden sabot.
Regards,
John

emike123

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Re: New proof of civil war rifled cannon "Fixed" shells
« Reply #55 on: February 19, 2013, 04:34:51 PM »
Yes.  The design in those preliminary drawings was complex with soft metal studs drawing on the Armstrong system Burton saw while self-exiled" to the UK as well as the wooden cup covered in twine. 

In practice (eg., all recovered examples), there were not studs and a lead ring and some with a longer protruding iron tail had a wooden cup below it that fit like a donut with a tapered hole, flush to the lead band and also bottom of the projectile.  But the lubricated twine was wrapped around the outside diameter, not the much narrower diameter tail groove.

Its a good book for topics folks on this forum are interested in and available in paperback. 

John D. Bartleson Jr.

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Re: New proof of civil war rifled cannon "Fixed" shells
« Reply #56 on: February 19, 2013, 05:28:19 PM »
They would not have incorporated the four projections as this would have required a whole new rifling system.
Do you have any of the recovered speciments you mentioned that you can post?
John

emike123

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Re: New proof of civil war rifled cannon "Fixed" shells
« Reply #57 on: February 19, 2013, 06:36:13 PM »
I have 12 different Burton/Archer projectiles.  The two above included among them.  All are in that 12 little Indians video I posted a month or two ago.

I have only seen one non dug one with the wooden "donut."  It is not mine, but your friend in Kennesaw can possibly share pics of it with you.
« Last Edit: February 19, 2013, 06:38:36 PM by emike123 »

6lbgun

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Re: New proof of civil war rifled cannon "Fixed" shells
« Reply #58 on: February 19, 2013, 06:55:31 PM »
joevann wrote:

"1- iron-bodied shells which have an unmistakable Tie-ring on their base.

Answer:  I will admit that some early Confederate Archer ans Federal James projectiles have what appears to be tie-on groove for attachment of cartridge bag.  However, this would be an engineering and ordnance no-no.  It would require the black powder propelling charge to be in direct contact with the body of the shell with no canvas between.  This is just asking for an early detonation while ramming home the shot during the loading process.  Isn’t it much more likely that the purpose was for the placement of a lubricated hemp rope to cut down on fouling of the rifling by the lead sabots?"

In the 1861 manual under the heading Fixing Ammunition (page 278)  it states that when a wooden sabot is not used that a layer of tow was place upon the powder, thus being between the powder and direct contact with the shot.


"2- Mullane/Tennessee-sabot wooden dowels which have an unmistakable Tie-ring in the wood.

Answer:  The wooden dowel was to aid in uniform expansion of the base.  Form follows function.  You are reversing this engineering axiom and assuming the function from the form."

I agree that the wooden dowel was used for uniform expansion.  Why was the groove cut into the end?  I'm not saying that is was used as a tie ring (no documentation for that), but there has to be a reason that it's present.

Regards
Dan













John D. Bartleson Jr.

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Re: New proof of civil war rifled cannon "Fixed" shells
« Reply #59 on: February 19, 2013, 07:15:00 PM »
Could the groove been used to control splintering? and thus help maintain shape. I am not certain how it could help spread pressure but instead support the very thin sabot from bending rearwards losing rotation.
John