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Author Topic: M&M 313 through M&M 460 -- 3-ringers!  (Read 13868 times)

Jim T

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M&M 313 through M&M 460 -- 3-ringers!
« on: February 22, 2012, 12:31:44 PM »
3-ringers – MM#313 - 460

In this section I am only listing comments on those minies that exhibit specific or unique features. 

I think we need to keep in mind that during the Civil War the concept of tolerances and specifications as we think of them today was not commonplace.  We have to accept that these minies are the stereotypical bullet of the Civil War and that most are “just another 3-ringer.”  The variations are infinite because everyone and their brother made these things.  The only real criteria for them was that they have a cavity, three canalures, and fit down the barrel.

Regarding variations in diameter.  First, consider patina build-up and ground corrosion.  Second, the standard calibers were .54, .58, .69.   Yes, there were exceptions, but for the most part, to avoid a logistical nightmare, bullets were sized to fit multiple weapons.  One size for .54 and .55 rifles; one size for .577 and .58 muskets, and so on.  Also, some suppliers were found to have provided over-sized rounds...so having a bullet that measures .581 does not mean that it was intended for an imaginary .59 caliber weapon.

As a rule, we accept that cast 3-ringers and those with “sloppy” features are of southern manufacture while the more uniform specimens are northern machine-made bullets.  While this is true to a point, it must be acknowledged that while the northern arsenals were machine-pressing almost all their bullets during the war, they could not meet the demand from the field and great quantities of cast bullets were purchased from commercial sources.

The “sloppy” features exhibited in cast bullets are usually one or more of the following: nose cast, side cast, base cast, air bubbles, layering, and cavities not centered in the base of the bullet.  For those that have never tried to cast a lead bullet in a hand-held mould, I suggest you give it a try.  You will learn a lot about the many characteristics found in the old bullets we collect.

#314-315 – U.S. Musketoon, plug cavity, early musketoon rounds had a wood plug.
#318-319 – Called “Belgian.”  Many variations in the nose.
#320-321 – Called “Austrian.”  Heavy, crude bullet with teat in cavity.
#322 – Looks to be smaller version of the “Austrian.”  At .63 I wonder if it was intended for the Brunswick?
#323 – This is a monster bullet!  Very deep cavity.  All that I know of came from the “wishing well.”
#330-331 – side cast.
#337-339 – Northern “pressed & turned.”

#341 – Star in cavity.  No mention in ANY source that these came from the Washington Arsenal.  Atleast 3 sizes of raised star as well as an “*” asterisk.
#342 – “US” in cavity.  Springfield was an armory, not an arsenal, so these were not made there!
#343-348 – Pressed & turned on a J.D. Custer machine at Frankford Arsenal and by commercial source in Phila.  Five and six spoke varieties.  Do not call these “swaged” ...that was an entirely different process!
#349 – French Triangular cavity.
#350 – Selma arsenal.
#352-353 – Williams regulation.  Nose cast.  Cone cavity frequently features an air bubble flaw at the tip.
#354-355 – Machine pressed and turned.  See also #337-339 and #410.
#366-367 – Charleston Arsenal.
#368 – Not sure about this one.  Looks like it could even be a modern Lyman mould to me.
#371 – Richmond Lab.  Not made from salvaged lead or in a wood mould.  Made on a machine by Lehner & White.  Later-war production...I have a cartridge from a 1864-dated pack.
#375 – Thought to be CS, sometimes even called a “Macon,” but is often found in US areas.  Nose cast, well made...who knows?
#379 – side cast.
#384 – Let’s stop using the term foreign mold...please...it has unusual grooves, that’s all.
#390-392 – Heavy, crude bullet with teat.  See also #320-321 and #413.
#398-399 – See #384!
#410 – Machine pressed and turned.  See others.
#413 – Teat base.  See others.
#416 – Charleston Arsenal.
#418-419 – Crude, nose cast.  Probably not from Selma however.  None recovered from site.
#423 – English Snyder.  Post-CW.
#430 – Richmond Lab.  Lehner & White.  See #371.
#434-436 – Plug cavity, not foreign.  Wood plug is wrong.
#438-439 – Tennessee Rifle.  Not for Kerr rifle...the .45 Kerr fired Whitworth bullets!
#442-443 – Gallager carbine. #442 occasionally shows tool marks in cavity from lathe.
#448 – See #320-321.
#449 – “re-cut” mould.  Actually more like a worn or damaged mould.  Extra grooves were not cut into the mould...the deepest edges of the grooves were ground off.  Possibly to keep bullets from sticking.  Again, try casting bullets sometime to see what a pain it is to get them out.

If I did not specifically mention a particular bullet, that probably means I think it’s just another 3-ringer!

Have at it bullet nerds!  :o


ETEX

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Re: M&M 313 through M&M 460 -- 3-ringers!
« Reply #1 on: February 22, 2012, 01:57:05 PM »
Good job Jim. I have a couple of comments/questions before having to head to work.

MM-322 has been elusive. I know I have never seen one and I believe Mike is still trying to fill that spot. Bill do you have one in your collection?

MM-373 I have seen several of these come on the market through the years and they seem to be found in the Shenandoah Valley. Comments about this bullet and other information would be appreciated. Ian, I think you may be able to provide some input on this one. Not the same profile as the four groove found in the Trans-Mississippi.

MM-407 is a great bullet. A hard to find bullet in good shape but deifinitely out there. I had one dug in Louisiana and upgraded and didn't get a location on the good one in the collection.

MM-418/419 called Selma's forever. Jim during the research for RBTRF IV was no documentation found on this bullet from any of the arsenals. Note: check the MM-476 and Tom Stelma's book for comparison.

Those are just a couple of comments until I have more time to add more comments and questions.

Jim I just tore all the pages of the three ringers out of all my reference books and wow they sure are thin now.  :D ;D ::)

misipirelichtr

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Re: M&M 313 through M&M 460 -- 3-ringers!
« Reply #2 on: February 22, 2012, 06:03:31 PM »
I've got an example of MM 323 and yes, it is from the "Confederate Wishing Well", but the one in McKee Mason was recovered elsewhere.  The wishing well recoveries occurred after publication of MM.

tom buckley

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Re: M&M 313 through M&M 460 -- 3-ringers!
« Reply #3 on: February 22, 2012, 06:59:18 PM »
I've got an example of MM 323 and yes, it is from the "Confederate Wishing Well", but the one in McKee Mason was recovered elsewhere.  The wishing well recoveries occurred after publication of MM.

 Does anyone know where MM 323s have been found, other than the famous "Wishing Well"?

ETEX

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Re: M&M 313 through M&M 460 -- 3-ringers!
« Reply #4 on: February 24, 2012, 01:44:52 PM »
Wes,

Have you gone into "Bullet Overload" before posting on this series.  :) :D ;D I will add more comments this weekend if I have Sunday off. Saturday has already been placed on the schedule so that day is shot for posting.

ETEX

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Re: M&M 313 through M&M 460 -- 3-ringers!
« Reply #5 on: February 25, 2012, 11:36:06 AM »
Okay folks here's my take on the 69 caliber 3 ringers

MM-314/315 are listed as having a 3 cavity (truncated flat tip) and 5 cavity (plug). I have never seen a 3 cavity in the MM-314. MM does list in the notes the MM-314 is found with a 11 cavity (paraboloidal) and a plug. My take is the same bullet with the only difference between the two bullets being the height of the base ring.

MM-314/315/335/567/569 appear to me to be the same bullet or just slight variants of the same bullet. The MM-569 is listed as having a 2 cavity (conical) but without a cavity photo in the supplement one would need to inspect the bullet.

MM-320/321/448 are one in the same and one of my favorites of the confederate bullets. A large and crude chunk of lead to send down range.

MM-337/339/646 are the same bullets. Jim I added the MM-646 since you didn't cover the supplement.

MM-340 appears to be a light fired bullet and I say this only because of the base being flared or appearing flared out in the photo. MM states this is a 3 cavity but it sure looks like a plug to me. The profile of the bullet is close to the MM-334/TT-187A

MM-560 will probably get some responses - cut off minie

Have at it folks.

ETEX

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Re: M&M 313 through M&M 460 -- 3-ringers!
« Reply #6 on: February 27, 2012, 01:42:18 PM »
Wes, I agree on the MM-316 and I also have a very similar bullet in my collection. I believe like you it's a nose cast that has been severely snipped.

I can only speculate on the MM 324 - 329 and why they may have ended up in the book. I would venture to say with the profiles, sizes, grooves, dig locations, etc they appeared to be worthy of identifying and listing. They even realized the number of variants of these bullets and listed them under the notes sections in the book. If you check the notes for the MM-329 that is a complete set of bullets in itself.

ETEX

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Re: M&M 313 through M&M 460 -- 3-ringers!
« Reply #7 on: February 28, 2012, 03:25:32 AM »
Wes, it's like pulling teeth at times to get anyone to post their thoughts, ideas, ect on bullets.

Jim T

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Re: M&M 313 through M&M 340 -- 3-ringers!
« Reply #8 on: February 28, 2012, 08:07:59 AM »
I've noticed over the years frequent difficulty distinguishing a large #3 from a small #5 cavity.  It seems these cavities come in many diameters and depths.  I think M&M had a great initial idea in dealing with the "relative" depth and size of cavities.  But now that we have more knowledge, as well as the ability to share such information, I think we need to develop some sort of common specifications.  I've not got a clue on what to use instead.  Suggestions??

Wes, I was going to jump in on this.  I figured we should use the English-made Enfield cavity as the standard for #5 "plug cavity" and anything smaller could be a variation of the #3 cavity.  But, of course, when I started measuring cavities of marked Enfields (that definately utilized wood plugs), they were all over the place.  So much for my plan!  No standard size even out of the bullets you'd expect to be the most standardized.

ETEX

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Re: M&M 313 through M&M 460 -- 3-ringers!
« Reply #9 on: February 28, 2012, 12:56:17 PM »
Wes and Jim, both good points about the plug cavity. They are all over the spectrum.

Wes didn't you have any comments on the bullets in the Supplement?

Any thoughts other than a cut off minie on the MM-560?


ETEX

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Re: M&M 313 through M&M 460 -- 3-ringers!
« Reply #10 on: March 03, 2012, 02:10:32 PM »
Wes,

Take a look at the MM-334/TT-187A and compare it's profile and size to the MM-575. I have the 575 listed as a variant or similar bullet to the MM-334. The bullet in my collection measures out at .672 x 1.093 x 766 and also has a very deep conical cavity measuring .485 deep. MM states the 334 has a 11 cavity or a 2 cavity (in notes) but I have only seen the bullet with the conical cavity. It is very difficult to distinguish profiles and characteristics from the photos in the supplement but I see a close enough profile to believe these are the same bullet. Unfortunately I don't have a dig location on this bullet unless Jim can provide me with one.

ETEX

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Re: M&M 313 through M&M 460 -- 3-ringers!
« Reply #11 on: March 08, 2012, 01:12:00 PM »
Wes and anyone else lets hear your thoughts on the 577 and 54 caliber bullets in this series. Hopefully I will have time to add my comments on these and then we can go on to the next group in the series.

ETEX

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Re: M&M 313 through M&M 460 -- 3-ringers!
« Reply #12 on: March 10, 2012, 05:04:46 AM »
Well I just got in from a late shift and thought I would add a couple of notes to what Jim and Wes have posted and I also covered some of these briefly in a prior post.

MM366/367/368/603 all attributed and known as Charleston High Base bullets. I believe the MM-368 is a good bullet and patterned after the MM-416 (54 caliber version). I have one in my collection that is close but does not have a 6 cavity and isn't as long as MM lists. It does however have an extremely long high base.

MM-473 (4 groove) is a bullet I mentioned earlier. I have seen several and all of these were dug in the Shenandoah Valley. Any Virginia/West Virginia diggers/collectors that could possible supply information on this bullet. This is not the same as the 4 groove bullet dug in the Trans-Mississippi.

MM-390/391/392/583 and a handful of others listed in the TT Handbook. I think these are great bullets, crude, heavy and CSA all the way. Have always been referred to as Georgia Troops or Georgia Teat base bullets. You can make a collection of these bullets all by themselves with the sizes, shapes and variants. Great Bullets.

MM-407 listed as a musketoon. I believe this is a good bullet. Like Wes stated most have been dug in Port Hudson or Louisiana. I have had several in my collection and my last upgrade I dig not get a dig location. The damage normally contained on this bullet is from the skirt/rim being so thin that it is easlily pushed, smashed and way out of round. A good bullet but a hard bullet to find.

MM-582 is the same bullet as the MM-355.

It's late and time to hit the hay after working a 13 hour shift. I will try to add more whenever I decide to crawl out of bed are when the dogs think I should crawl out of bed.

ETEX

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Re: M&M 313 through M&M 460 -- 3-ringers!
« Reply #13 on: March 10, 2012, 02:24:50 PM »
Additional comments now that I had a couple hours of sleep.

MM-375 is a well made bullet and some referring to this bullet as being a Macon is the first time I have heard this. I like that reference though because I think this is a unique and good looking bullet. The two in my collection came from Richmond and Charleston.

MM-378 has got to be mentioned because I think this is a great example of a crude CS bullet. The thick base, nose cuts, etc.

MM-452 Wes I am one of the believers that this bullet is the Texas Troops Minie (Cove Creek).