Bullet and Shell Civil War Projectiles Forum
Relic Discussion => Artillery => Topic started by: divedigger on July 12, 2013, 05:53:24 PM
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finally got this thing out of the bathtub
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Hey Digger, that is a beaut. was it difficult to inert?
John
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Fantastic! I am very happy for you! When will you be passing out the cigars?
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Gorgeous :)
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that is awesome.
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Dave,
That's about as nice as they come. Beautiful job on the cleaning. And with an awesome provenance to boot. I hope your floor is solid!
Picking that one up and putting it in the tank and carrying it into the house will keep you in good shape!
Is that a mold seam around the perimeter? I haven't seen enough of them to know but I don't recall these big boys having much of a seam. I did look in Harry's archive at the 15-inch cannon balls:
http://www.relicman.com/artillery/zArchiveArt.aBall.P.15inch.htm
and do see one on the thin walled case shot shell.
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Nice Dahlgren!
Was going to purchase one from Harry a few years back but shipping to my part of the world--$2,000.
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John, it was easy to inert. After talking to Bigironman I was able to back the fuzes out and flush the powder with a water hose, it took a while. Joevann, everybody around here is sick of hearing about it, when they see me coming they go the other way! Yes Carl it does have a nice seam around it. I don't exactly pick it up and I hope the floor is solid too!! Thank you for looking and commenting guys. David
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Very nice
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Definitely a great looker.
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Superb! They don't come much better than that. Thanks for showing it.
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Dave, isn't one of the fuzes the rare '62 long ' monitor' fuze ?? The shell looks real good, thanks for NOT calling me to help you get it in the house !! What is the weight ??
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Bell has it listed at 330 pounds. Is it hard to move? I see most people displaying it on the ground. How hard do you think it would it be to lift and display on a sturdy shelf?
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I have always been under the impression that the Naval Water Cap Fuse adapters used the standard Frankfort Arsenal paper time fuses which I believe are all the same size with different burn times.
If this is true why are the fuse adapters used in the 15 inch shell different lengths?
Regards,
John ::)
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John, I'm pretty sure I have some of that answer. The fuze body is longer because the wall of the shell is so thick. Maybe someone can post a picture of a frag of a 15 incher. As far as if they had a special long length paper time fuze inside that adaptor, I do not know....... I've never burned a paper time fuze, but I hear they burn like a road flare. Maybe the long brass fuze body is there to direct the flame concentrated into the powder charge.
Has anyone ever actually backed off the small inside watercap adaptor on a naval fuze and pulled out a standard paper time fuze ?? I always wondered if they were just packed with powder, or they had a paper time fuze....
Maybe at Richmond this weekend we can get the boys together over a couple beers and light up a paper fuze - all in the name of research mind you !!
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all fuzes are 1863, I read somewhere that they came with different burn times to allow the gunner a choice. I would guess the short fuze was the shortest burn time. All of the fuzes have a small amount of the paper protruding from the bottom. I only got 1 safety plug out of it, the other 2 either washed out during the powder flushing or are still inside. Garret, it is easy enough to move, it rolls real easy, but it likes to keep rolling. Picking it up is not possible except by mechanical means, at least for an old fat man like me.
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David,
Even the shortest fuse adapter clears the shell thickness.
You bring about a good question, do they use a Frankfort fuse or are they specially driven for this 15 inch shell.
John
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I have seen the remnants of a few and enough was preserved to show them to be the run of the mill Frankford Arsenal type paper time fuse.
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I've seen the same as Mike. I also know of at least one other 15-inch 3-fused ball that had a long adapter and two short adapters found in the shell. But I've never seen a long version of the paper fuse to go into the longer adapters but perhaps there is and I never noticed. But I don't see anything in Chuck's book either. They made so few of the longer bodied watercaps and they are only dated 1863 so it sounds like an experiment that didn't provide any value worth the extra brass.
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A very few of the long ones are also dated 1862, but no matter as your point is the same and well taken.
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Concur, I have a 9" Dahlgren with a NWC fuze that was submerged. It has a paper tube inside it.
Yes, not hard to move a 15" shell. It moves itself a lot of the times and the trick is getting it to stop before it destroys your wall, a piece of furniture, or your foot.
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Especially if you want one downstairs in a basement with only stair access. ;D They do have a lot of inertia!
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So we have another one to place in the box of mysteries.
John :o
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John, what's your thoughts on the reason for the longer fuze body only found [ basically ] in the 15 inch balls if it isn't wall thickness ?? Is it to 'direct' the 'road flare' burning flame of the paper time fuze ??
I have a 1862 long fuze that came out of an 11 inch ball. I haven't heard of another long nwc fuze coming from an 11 inch ball, this might be an exception.
diver\dave, sorry we hijacked your thread here. It is an astounding shell you found. Your home ain't going nowhere now in a hurricane or tornado !!
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David,
As far as the length of the adapter body, even the two shorter adapters are long enough pass completely through the shell wall so that can't be the reason. If the one adapter was longer to get the flame into the powder then the other two would also have to be as long as the one is.
My burning question is this: is the longer adapter contain a standard length Frankfort Arsenal fuse or is it a driven fuse composition?
Regards,
John
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I have a long pattern one packed solid top to bottom. Protruding from the bottom is a standard paper time fuse end however at the top end it appears to be just packed powder.
(http://i1236.photobucket.com/albums/ff458/emike123/DSCN2069-Copy_zps11b8a810.jpg) (http://s1236.photobucket.com/user/emike123/media/DSCN2069-Copy_zps11b8a810.jpg.html)
(http://i1236.photobucket.com/albums/ff458/emike123/DSCN2068-Copy_zps61ea97c0.jpg) (http://s1236.photobucket.com/user/emike123/media/DSCN2068-Copy_zps61ea97c0.jpg.html)
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yep, thats how mine looks.
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just a thought here,
with that appearing to be milled powder packed into the top of the wcf I would think that it would act as a time fuse as well. Given the burn rate of the powder on top of the paper fuse it is possible that they were made for a fixed time using both the powder and the paper fuse.
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Beautiful specimen Mike. You may have answered our questions. Is there a chance that the end at the water cap could be a second Frankfort Arsenal paper fuse?
If not and it is just loosely packed powder, then no accurate time could be predicted.
It is evidently made this way to provide a longer flight time. But how long.
Thank you for posting such clear images.
John
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Diverdudedave, On your 3 fuzes, did any still have the lead seal tab ?? did any one of them have the fuze 'burned out' inside the body ?? I wonder if they shot it as a solid shot and did not 'arm' the fuzes.......
Here is a thought; I bet if the gunner wanted say a 10 second delay before bursting, I wonder if he pulled the tab on the 15 second fuze just as a backup ..........
and another thought; if the increments were in 5 seconds on the fuzes, what if you wanted it to burst at 12 sec.,not 10 or 15 ??
Mike, you fell into a pile of lead safety seals lately, what were the increments ??
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Dave aka "Bart Jr Question Man": 5,7,10,15 and 20 seconds
There may be more, but you tired me out. I have to nap now.
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Gunners had the authority to pull the paper fuzes and cut to any desired burning time, according to "Ordnance Instructions for the United States Navy"
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In support of Joe's mention of fuse cutting, there is an image of a fuse cutter in the back of Chuck Jones' book.
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Dave,
Is the ball from the Charleston area?
Garret
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No
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thanks Mike !!
Joe V., that was the exact answer to a lot of the questions. So there was no mealed powder or packed powder, just a paper time fuze. Thanks for the input !! Mystery semi -solved !! [ semi 'cause why the length of the long fuzes, and what were the paper time fuze lengths in them ?? ]
Carl, I own that fuze cutter in Chuck's book, and if you would ever get your butt over here, you can see it for yourself !!
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So we all agree that the longer adapter contained just one longer paper wrapped time fuse?
These must have been a special made fuse just for this application. Yes David it is a driven mealed powder fuse.
Joe, so you reckon the gunner would pull the lead seal and quick match, using the small spanner and remove the water cap, push the paper wrapped fuse out of the adapter, cut it to length then reassemble the adapter, minus the lead seal, screw it back into the shell; all in a gun room full of smoke and in excitement of getting another shot away? I guess it is possible but it doesn't seem to be a good idea.
Cheers,
John
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ok then another mystery appears. I have a complete copy of the 1860 navy ordnance instructions and Joe is correct. Yet, in the photo of Mike's fuze it shows something that appears to be powder.
Of the paper fuzes that I have here none of them give that appearance, even the ones that are in fuze holders. Sometimes, I have found in my research that things were done and tried back then that now make no sense to us.
It would make no sense to me to have a gunner aboard ship to spent the time to pack a wcf with powder on top of a fuze. They would not have any idea what the time of the fuze would be. That is why I suggested that it could have be something done at a laboratory so that the time of the fuze may have been known.
Like I said earlier, just a thought.
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These are the fuzes, with the cardboard protruding, and no lead safety caps on any of them. Probably longer because the fuze is longer. Or maybe it was a tried experiment that made no difference. Either way it certainly generated some conversation.
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The paper case fuzes in Navy Water Caps ARE NOT of Frankford Arsenal construction. They were made at the Ordnance Lab at Washington Navy Yard. Attached is a blurb from "Ordnance Instructions" Make of it what you will.
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"These fuses", Joe can you give us the lead in paragraphs that might identify which fuses?
John
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C'mon, John, I sent you a digital copy of the whole pub. It's the navy water cap, of course. What else have we been talking about?
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I was hoping for introductory paragraphs, not for myself but for members who may not have the reference. Personally, I find these excerpts difficult to read. Not all of the members have access to such a vast library as yours. Cheers, John
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That thing turned out great Dave. Congrat's!
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Excellent preservation work, Dave. I wish the archeologists could see work like yours.
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Thanks guys. It was a lot of fun.
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I have a found a few hundred pounds of the frags and a number of the long fuses. Mike has seen some. I will try to send a photo of the frags next week. Gary