Broun Length

[CarlS]

Hello,

While I could ask Pete directly I thought I'd post here so that perhaps I could get some input from the collective group as well.  I have a short pattern Broun shell in my collection from High Bridge.  It is 7 3/8th-inch long.  I just got in a long pattern Broun and it is 7 3/4-inch long.  When I look in the Dickey and George 1993 Edition artillery book they are shown as 7 1/2-inch and 8 1/4-inch long respectively.  Jack Melton's website measurements agree with Dickey and George.  My short pattern is a bit shorter than their lengths but 1/8th-inch is probably within reason.  The long pattern however is about 1/2-inch shorter than their lengths.  That doesn't seem to be within reason.  Of course it is only 1/4-inch longer than the measurement they provide for the short pattern.  So is it long or is it short?  All examples measured are wood fused.  Any thoughts by the more educated artillery guys?  Can some others here measure theirs and let me know what they find?  Many thanks in advance.

Best,
Carl

[6lbgun]

Carl,
    The length of my Short Broun (wood plug) is 7.4375 from the bottom edge of sabot to top.  Measured over all is 7.5 due to the iron protruding from the bottom.
Dan

[John D. Bartleson Jr.]

Carl,
Differences in the manufacturer? Or are they all made by the same arsenal?
John

[CarlS]

I'm not sure it's known for sure where they were made.  Captain Broun commanded the Richmond arsenal so presumably his first ones were made in Virginia.  The type I have are the more common like this:
     Short: http://www.civilwarartillery.com/projectiles/rifled/IIIA56.htm
     Long: http://www.civilwarartillery.com/projectiles/rifled/FAOIIIa61.htm
and most of them are found in late war Virginia and North Carolina.  But there have been some of the segmented types found in Alabama, Mississippi and west Tennessee battles.   Some have also been found in the river at Selma so could have been made there.  But Pete theorizes in his book that the crudeness of some indicates manufacture from somewhere else than Selma which typically made well finished shell so possibly Macon is the place of manufacture.

[John D. Bartleson Jr.]

Sounds as if they could have been made most anywhere.  Carl do you know of a clear sectioned segmented Broun shell? I need a good clear image of one.
John

[CarlS]

See below an image of the two Brouns so that it might clear up any confusion I've made in my ramblings.

John:  No, I sure don't.  That's a rare shell and so I imagine the half shells would be equally rare.  Perhaps someone here has one or someone has a frag.

[Pete George]

John D. Bartleson Jr. asked:
> Differences in the manufacturer? Or are they all made by the same arsenal?

  The many variances in the "VA/NC style" 3-inch caliber Broun shells would seem to prove they were not all manufactured at the same foundry.

  Besides the differing lengths of the projectile, there are three variations in the width of the bourrelet:
1/2" to 5/8"
7/8" to 1 inch
1&1/4"

  Also, there are three forms of "locking" tabs on the sabot:
Type 1- a simple long curved rectangle (two sub-variations -- one is thicker than the other).
Type 2- a long curved rectangle with two v-shaped notches in its inner edge.
Type 3- a long curved rectangle with a raised flange along its inner edge (when viewed "in profile" the tab is shaped like a capital-letter L).

  Additionally, I have personally observed at least four different Machining-shop Inspector's-marks on VA/NC 3" Broun shells:
A
C
*
L
I said "at least" because there may be others which I cannot recall at the moment.

  Furthermore, one some specimens the Machining-shop Inspector's-mark is found on the bourrelet, and on others the marking is on the sabot.

In summary:
1- Different projectile lengths.
2- Different bourrelet widths.
3- Different sabot-tab shapes.
4- Different Inspector-marks.
5- Different location of Inspector-marks.

  In my opinion, those five variances prove that the "VA/NC style" 3-inch Broun shells were made at several locations, not just one location. Writers of currently unfinished ACW artillery projectile books are of course free to disagree with my analysis and opinions -- or to quietly adopt them without attribution.

  A photo below shows the two sub-variations of the plain rectangle sabot-tab (thin version and thick version), and the "L-profile" tab. The other photo show the rectangular version with two V-shaped notches.

Regards,
Pete

[Pete George]

  Carl, the 1/8th-to-1/4" variance in lengths may be due to any of the following factors -- or a combination of them:
1- Does a length measurement include the copper fuzeplug, or not?
2- In some cases, the Broun shell's iron base extends below the sabot, and some people measure the length from the sabot's lower edge upward, excluding the base's projection.
3- Even on shells whose iron body is the exact same length, the sabot's length varies, probably due to "inexact" lathe-trimming work.

  I currently own two VA/NC 3" Broun long-pattern shells, both with a wooden fuzeplug. The length of both is 8.0-inches. The sabot-length on one is .88-inch and the other is .925-inch.

  In the photo you posted, showing VA/NC 3" Broun short and long-pattern shells side-by-side, the long-pattern's sabot appears to be shorter than the other sabot. Perhaps my eyes are deceiving me. Please measure the sabot width on both, and report the measurement.

Regards,
Pete

[Pete George]

John D. Bartleson Jr. wrote:
> Carl do you know of a clear sectioned segmented Broun shell? I need a good clear image of one.

  Carl has replied that he doesn't know... so I'll answer. The 1993 Edition of the Dickey-&-George book's page 524 (in Appendix C) shows a "Selma" 3" Broun whose upper five inches has been halfsectioned, clearly showing that portion of its "star" polygonal cavity. I realize that's not quite enough for you to use in creating a full-length diagram. So, here's a photo of one sawed entirely in half.  Unfortunately, its polygonal cavity is seriously corroded... but you can discern that it had a total of five lateral grooves, which divide the 6-point-star cavity into segments. I suggest you combine that photo with the clearer one in the D&G book to produce a correctly-detailed diagram.

Regards,
Pete

[Steve Phillips]

I think I will call the ones I have found Selma Segmented Reads. I know they were made at Selma since I have found unfinished shells. The segmented ones come in several sizes and not all are segmented. Some have wood fuze holders and some screw in copper holders. I do not know of any segmented shells of this type being made anywhere but Selma. My unfinished Selma Segmented Reads are on display at Tannehill Iron and Steel Museum near Birmingham.

[Steve Phillips]

Photo of Selma Segmented Read that I have at home.

[John D. Bartleson Jr.]

Thanks all, I should have specified that I need a sectioned Broun , 3.62 caliber that has a clean inside.
Regards,

Johnn

[CarlS]

Dan: Interesting. I don't think I've noticed where the shell body protrudes below the sabot on any I've seen. With mine the short pattern is about 1/4" recessed and the longer version is just below flush.

Pete: Great info on the Broun!  I will definitely save that.  Too bad I can't determine the tab type.  Both of my shells are wood fused and the ones pictured in your and Jack's books are also wood so I assume the measurements are from the wood fused specimens pictured.  I measured the length of the shell by standing it on it's wood fused nose and measuring from desktop to the sabot edge.  The length of the sabot on my shells of the short pattern sabot is 0.856" and the long pattern is 0.846" so they are basically the same. In fact so incredibly close to think a common foundry but the upper bourrelet is quite different.  But both are a bit shorter than each of your shells.