Bullet and Shell Civil War Projectiles Forum
Relic Discussion => Artillery => Topic started by: Pete George on December 13, 2012, 02:57:16 PM
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Some folks here will recall the debate about whether or not civil war RIFLED cannons used "Fixed" ammunition. I posted several (not just one) original civil war Ordnance Department "receipts" (for ammunition issued in the field to artillery batteries) which plainly listed Hotchkiss and Schenkl Fixed-ammunition shells.
I've now found additional proof. It is a non-dug artillery ammocrate, which has Original stenciling saying "20 PDR RIFLE SHELLS FIXED". The crate is also marked "Watervliet Arsenal Nov. 1861".
It is currently for sale on Ebay. As of this moment, that auction ends in 9 hours 17 minutes. The bidding is currently at $1,090 (with 14 bids).
Here's a link to the Ebay auction for the marked "20-Pdr Rifle Shells Fixed" artillery ammocrate.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/ORIGINAL-Civil-War-Heavy-Artillery-Box-dated-1861-from-WATERVLIET-ARSENAL-/370704923770?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item564fbc3c7a
That webpage will be kept "alive" for at least 30 more days from now. You'll be able to view the enlarged-version photos there even after the auction has ended. (To do that, put your cursor on the image, and a ghosted white box will appear that says "Mouse here to zoom in.")
Here's a photo showing the marking saying "20 PDR RIFLE SHELLS FIXED." (The marking is written in all-caps, so that is who I've typed it here.) If you can't see it clearly enough in this photo, go to the Ebay auction page and use the zoom-in option.
Regards,
Pete
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Yes, and I am one of those folks. Pete you have better eyes than mine as all I can read is the arsenal marking.
I have enlarged the sides with markings, enhanced them in photoshop to try and read what you say the box reads. No luck.
I wonder why the seller does not mention what ammo was in the box.
I would certainly like to see just how a powder bag is fastened to the Hotchkiss or the Schenkl.
Can anyone see any reference to 20 pdr Schenkl fixed ammunition?
Regards,
John
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Yes, and I am one of those folks. Pete you have better eyes than mine as all I can read is the arsenal marking.
I have enlarged the sides with markings, enhanced them in photoshop to try and read what you say the box reads. No luck.
I wonder why the seller does not mention what ammo was in the box.
I would certainly like to see just how a powder bag is fastened to the Hotchkiss or the Schenkl.
Can anyone see any reference to 20 pdr Schenkl fixed ammunition?
Regards,
John
I see everything but the "Schenkl".
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NOWHERE in my post did I say the ammocrate's stenciling says "Schenkl."
Artillery ammocrate stenciled labeling typically tells only the caliber/cannon-type, and whether the projectiles are shell, case-shot, or solid-shot. Such as "3 In. Rifle Case Shot".
Regards,
Pete
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NOWHERE in my post did I say the ammocrate's stenciling says "Schenkl."
Artillery ammocrate stenciled labeling typically tells only the caliber/cannon-type, and whether the projectiles are shell, case-shot, or solid-shot. Such as "3 In. Rifle Case Shot".
Regards,
Pete
I noted that Pete, thus the quotation marks. :)
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Some fixed thoughts:
Has anyone come across an Ordnance Department receipt for rifled ammunition without the designation "Fixed"?
Fixed spherical ammunition was shipped from the arsenals packed in paper cylinders with paper caps. Whether these were removed when uncrated to be placed in the limbers and caissons, or removed at the time of loading the piece is not clear. Large field caliber and siege gun ammunition was not fixed so the paper cylinders and caps were omitted.
I have not been able to definitely find out how rifled ammunition was packed for shipment at the arsenals. I would assume that the projectile and cartridge would be shipped together. I'm thinking that if the projectile and cartridge were shipped together in a paper cylinder and cap, (not necessarily tied together) they would be considered one complete round. (Fixed). If ordering complete rounds the terminology fixed would be used. When ordering just the projectile, the word fixed would be omitted. Dan
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6lbgun wrote:
> Has anyone come across an Ordnance Department receipt for rifled ammunition without the designation "Fixed"?
Yes... here's one of several, which I've posted in past discussion of the subject. It shows the issuance of "Hotckiss Case Shot Fixed" and "Percussion Schenkl" [non-fixed], along with an equal number of Cartridges for the Schenkl shells.
Regards,
Pete
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Pete I wonder if the term case shot was in reality cannister which were fixed or could be.
Regards,
John
P.S. Shouldn't your statement "Such as "3 In. Rifle Case Shot"." have the word "fixed" at the end?
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Would someone list the members of a ACW rifled gun crew and their duties at the gun?
John
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John,
Are you looking for Army field artilley or Navy gun crew?
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John, I am at work and do not have access to my book, but in my book I have a schematic showing the positions of all crew members for a battery. I do not remember the source, but it is footnoted in the book.
Ed
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John, why did you change the subject of this thread with the question, "Would someone list the members of a ACW rifled gun crew and their duties at the gun?
John" Probably better as a new thread for us readers. Thanks, Scott
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On the contrary sir, it will show that either gun crew member 1 or 2 will load and ram a powder cartridge, followed by the projectile in loading a rifled cannon and that rifled artillery projectiles have separate projectile and cartridge bags and are not 'fixed' ammunition.
Regards,
John
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John Bartleson has urged me to join your chat group.
I have examined about 100 ammunition crates for small arms, small arms and artillery ammunition, and Naval crates. Three crates containing 3" Schenkl ammo for shell and case had no room for powder bags. I have examined two rifled ammo crates fabricated at the Watervliet Arsenal. The stenciling was very light. My photos were taken with an Instamatic or Brownie camera and have darkened over the years. But I have taken very detailed measurements on my forms. What you need to know is the interior dimensions of the crates and the lettering:
10 Pdr. Rifle (painted red w/white lettering) - Interior: 11 3/4"H x 11 3/4"W x 19"L. Each line of information is separated by a forward slash: 20 ROUNDS / 10 PDR, RIFLE / CASE SHOT FIXED / 1861 / BORMAN FUZE
20 Pdr. Rifle (painted black w/white lettering) - Interior: 10 1/2"H x 11"W x 21 1/2"L. 10 ROUNDS / 20 PDR, RIFLE / SHELLS FIXED / 1861 / TIME FUZE
One side was stenciled: U.S. NO. 308 / COL. J. E. LEBLIE / CHIEF OF ARTY. / DEPT. OF NO. CA., / NEWBERN / NO., CA. / FROM N. Y. ARSENAL
I am Robert Gregory at: walkdontrun@tds.net
I published a book in 2011 that covers Ordnance Forms, Small Arms and Ammunition, Artillery Ammunition and Packing Crates. It covers A-Z in Ordnance. It has been reviewed by The Artilleryman, The Camp Chase Gazette, The American Digger and North-South Trader's Civil War. It is a "must have." It has been endorsed by James T. Cook, authority on small arms ammunition and Jack W. Melton Jr., authority on artillery. Visit my website at: http://potomacpublishingco.com
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welcome aboard Bob !! It's about time you showed up here......... all artillery enthuasists eventually do............
How long would a powder bag be for a 3 inch Parrott shell, as your first crate had ?? Notice also they were 10 lb Parrott with the Bormann fuze
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The only way anyone can prove that muzzle-loading rifle ammunition had the powder bags attached, is to find an indisputable physical example or period photograph. Since none exist in any collections,museums, period illustrations, photographs or any arsenal instructions for the same, I think it is very safe to assume that the term "fixed" when applied to rifled projectiles either means the shell was filled and fuzed OR it was conventional round case shot to fit the bore of a specific rifled piece. Yes, you can definately shoot round ball from a rifled artillery piece.
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Welcome aboard Bob. so in your opinion if the inside height is not tall enough to permit the attachment of powder bags to the rifled shells, what in your opinion does the term 'fixed' mean? it evidently does not mean an all up round ready to ram home.
Regards,
John
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Fellows, I thought this a great opportunity to display my ignorance on the subject (I lurk and learn a lot here :D). Is Melton of the opinion that fixed means complete, whole? Witness the images and caption at the bottom of this page:
http://www.civilwarartillery.com/projectiles/spherical/IIIA2.htm (http://www.civilwarartillery.com/projectiles/spherical/IIIA2.htm)
If the crates did not have the capacity contain the charge, could the "fixing" be that of the sabot only?
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Sir:
Taken from a quote in Jack's description: "After attachment of the powder charge, the round was referred to as fixed ammunition. "
Without the powder bag attached iit is merely 'strapped shot or shell' Below is an example of 'strapped shell' taken from the salvage of the Federal gunboat Cairo.
Regards.
John
(http://i1069.photobucket.com/albums/u465/jbart2/TalaricoampChubbwith12pdrs_zps1201d999.jpg)
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This from the 1861 Ordnance Manual under the heading "Manner of Packing Ammunition Boxes" page 279. As you can see, it does not give the dimensions of the box, just how to pack it for shipment.
For Rifled Guns. - case shot, fixed - Place upright, the balls down, resting on strips of wood as for the howitzers. The iron part of the balls rests against strips of wood 4 inches wide and .25 inch thick, nailed to the side and ends of the box at the bottom, and similar strips placed between the rows of the balls, to prevent the soft-metal cups from bearing against the box or against each other and being bruised.
..........In all the boxes, the small stores are placed in the vacant spaces on top of the ammunition. A layer of tow is placed in the bottom of each box, and the whole contents are well packed in tow, filling the box so as to be pressed down by the cover. About 3lbs of tow are required for a box.
The projectiles are referred to as "balls" , but these projectiles do have sabots referred to "soft metal cups".
Thanks
Dan
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John, is that you in the old black and white photo ??!!
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David, no - read caption upper left.
Dan - Are you shooting spherical case shot in a rifled cannon? Do you have Bob Gregory's book? excellant chapter on artillery ammo boxes.
Regards,
John
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6lbgun wrote:
> The projectiles are referred to as "balls", but these projectiles do have sabots referred to "soft metal cups".
The "soft metal cups" term in the 1861 Manual must mean the 3" Dyer projectile's lead-&-zinc alloy sabot ...which as you probably already know is the only American-made artillery proectile in US Army service in 1861 which had a "soft metal cup" sabot. (The Read-Parrott projectile's wrought-iron ring sabot would not be considered a "soft metal.")
Regards,
Pete
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Rifled balls, lead cups, damn I am getting confused. ::)
John :-\
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John- Yes I am familure with Bob's book and have a copy. I am not saying that they were using spherical case shot in rifled cannon. I was just stating what was written in the manual and the terms that were used.
Best
Dan
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Dan,
I am leaning towarrds what Pete said about the lead cup being the Dyer case shot. It is just the reference to "balls" was a little confusing and I believe that term only applies to spherical projectiles. The application of 'fixed' to spherical field shells, case shot and solid shot is a known fact.
What has me in a confused state is the use of the word "fixed". in boxes marked 3 inch rifle, fixed the inside height of the boxes would not have room to have an attached powder bag. None of the rifled projectiles I have seen have a place to tie on a bag.
I gess I have beat this one to a parade rest. :)
Regards,
John
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One of the definitions of Ball is: a spherical or pointed projectile, such as one shot from a cannon.
Best
Dan
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could 'fixed' possibly mean with fuze already installed too ??
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could 'fixed' possibly mean with fuze already installed too ??
That is my contention as regards rifle projectiles.
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According to the section on rifled guns in the 1863 (5th) edition of Robert's Handbook of Artillery of the United States, all the cartridges are loaded seperately. When round ball is used for richochet fire, they must be wrapped to take the rifling, ergo the cartidges are also separate. Download a free copy here:
http://books.google.com/books?id=s2kBAAAAYAAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=the+handbook+of+artillery&hl=en&sa=X&ei=5OcfUcjEMsnW2gWO3YCoCg&ved=0CEAQ6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=the%20handbook%20of%20artillery&f=false
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Joe,
Maybe I have miss understood your quote as we all know that spherical projectiles can be fixed, cartridges atached or strapped to their sabots and cartridges loaded separately.
John
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Yes, they can and were. However, they must be wrapped to take rifling. I'm only repeating what the text says for firing round ball for ricochet effect rifled guns. As to rifle projectiles (elongated), it states very clearly that the cartridges are loaded seperately from the projectile into the piece.
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Joe, can't the powder bags have paper cylinders and caps imployed in order to fire from rifled guns?
Did it explain how to 'wrap' one? :o
John
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John, download the manual for yourself from the link I posted and make your own determination. You've been at this many more years than I.
Regards,
Joe
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Joe I have downloaded both manuals. Which one, wha page?
John
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Roberts' "Handbook of Artillery" pg 167-168. It says that in rifled guns, round ball should be wrapped in canvas or other suitable material to bring the center of the projectile as close as possible to the center of the bore. These are the printed page numbers and not the electronic pages. I have the full Adobe acrobat program, so when I download one of the texts, I clean them up by removing blank pages, turning illustrations upright, running the entire thing through OCR to make it word searchable, and then install bookmarks to make the research even faster. Then it goes in my CD library. I am in the process putting all my hard-copy on CD, but this will take awhile as I have several thousand in the library.
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Thank you Joe, very thorough.
John
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This should be the FINAL word on fixed ammunition for rifled ordnance. In the Report of the Chief of Ordnance, dated October 23, 1866, there is a 'Statement of ordnance and ordnance stores purchased by the Ordnance Department from January 1, 1861 to June 30, 1866" Every item is listed by class and the total number purchased and the amount paid. Projectiles for smooth-bore and rifled guns are Class IV and they are all there broken down by type and caliber. Fixed ammunition and hand grenades are Class V. Under the category of "Fixed Ammunition" are listed: 6-pound, shot, shell, case, and cannister; 12-pound shot, shell, case, and cannister; 32-pound shell, and 3-inch canister. That's it. That is all the fixed ammunition.
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With due respect, it is not "the final word" regarding the use (or not) of "fixed" rifled-artillery projectiles in 1861-1865.
Two days ago, I wrote a lengthy reply in this discussion-thread, then clicked the Post button... and my post failed to appear in the forum. I've not had the time to spare to reconstruct it since then. However, during the long history of discussion of the subject in this forum, I've posted MULTIPLE scans of surviving original civil war Ordnance Receipts of rifled-cannon ammunition issued in the field, which very specifically list the issuance of "fixed" rifled-cannon ammunition.
Newer members may not have been told about the past discussions and posts about the subject. See in particular, past discussion of Tie-ring Base projectiles, and "Those pesky little Xs", and other discussions regarding "fixed" rifled-cannon ammunition.
Older posts aside, I posted a photo of one of the surviving Fixed rifle-shells Ordnance Receipts in this current discussion. It lists:
121 Rounds Hotchkiss Case Shot Fixed
11 Percussion Schenkl
11 Cartridges
As I've said, it is NOT the only such specimen. But apparently, it (and the several others I've posted) are being ignored/dismissed. Those original civil war dated in-the-field Ordnance Receipts and rifled-ammo crates marked "Fixed" are the final word on the subject.
The explanation for lack of space in rifled-cannon ammo crates marked "Fixed" ought to be obvious. We know that packing iron projectiles with LOADED powder-bags in shipping crates is unsafe during shipment. The simple explanation for the Rifled ammo crates marked "Fixed" is that the powder-bags ("cartridges") are indeed affixed to the projectiles by the issuing Arsenal, but the attached bags are unfilled.
An 1866 document which does not show Fixed ammo for rifled cannons may reflect the situation in 1866, but the 1861-dated crates and 1863-1864 Ordnance Receipts speak beyond contradiction for the wartime years.
For the convenience of newer members who have not seen the past posts, here are a couple of the several wartime-dated Ordnance Receipts I've posted showing the issuance of Fixed rifled-cannon projectiles "in the field."
Regards,
Pete
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Dear Pete,
We are not disregarding your two documents but Joe's document is in definite conflict.
I think when we look at the shape of the rifled Hotchkiss projectile, be it shell,case or solid shot there are no means of fastening a cartridge bag to the projectile body short of pulling the bag up and over the base cup thereby increasing its diameter.
Even at the West Point Museum there is not one specimen of a fixed rifle projectile. In your book, Melton, Bell and John Biemick's forth coming publication there is no mention or illustrative image of a fixed rifle projectile. So I for one must yield to the overwhelming evidence that they do not exist.
Respectfully,
John
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Issuing ordnance officers in the field during the ACW were, for the most part, inexperienced miltia officers and glorified clerks. If cartridge bags were to be attached to rifled case or shell, somewhere there would be a written, official document from the Ordnance Department giving exact instructions on how it was to be done. For goodness sakes! In relation to round ball and canister, the exact dimensions, type of cloth, size and location of nails was specified! If it wasn't safe to ship rifled ammunition with the cartridges filled, why was it safe to ship 12 -pound shell with the bag attached and filled? The wartime manuals giving instruction for servicing rifled guns all specify that the charge and projectile are loaded as separate operations. With all due respect, Mr. George, I think you're chasing Sasquatch here. There simply is no physical evidence to support your assertion. Written receipts on pre-printed forms on Ebay (which may or may not be real) are circumstantial at best. You're going to have to do better than that to convince an old cannon-cocker like me. I know of no military establisment anywhere in the world that attached cloth cartridge bags to rifle projectiles either before, during, or after the ACW. The best argument against this is from an engineering standpoint. Attaching a cloth bag would require adding the thickness of the cloth to outside of the base of the projectile. What is going to happen when you try to ram that down the barrel? It's going to catch, fold, and jam because it is the same diameter as the projectile. Sabots for round ball were tapered and the cartridge bag is smaller in diameter than the projectile. Even in post war breech loaders, cartidge bags were not attached to the projectiles.
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They are only referring to these rifle shells as "fixed" because they were filled and had the fuze installed at the arsenal or depot. When they arrived from the manufacturer, they were empty. If you look at the records of any of the manufacturer's such as Boston Foundry or Cold Springs, they only had provisions for storage of relatively small amounts of powder for proof and testing. Maybe one small magazine. Not enough to fill shells. Guess what? They still don't. Private manufacturers make the artillery shells, but they are shipped to an Army Ammunition plant for filling and assembly.
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Regarding the 20 Pounder Rifled Ammunition crate. 30 years ago, I measured and took very detailed notes on a similar crate. The crate was owned by a gentleman in Lancaster, Pa. The stenciling on the ends read read "10 ROUNDS / 20 PDR, RIFLE / SHELLS FIXED / 1861 / TIME FUSE." One side was stenciled "FROM / WATERVLIET / ARSENAL." The other side was stenciled "U.S. NO. 308 / COL. J. E. LEBLIE / CHIEF OF ARTY. / DEPT. OF NO., CA., / NEWBERN / NO., CA. / FROM N. Y. ARSENAL." Hinges were added later. Of particular interest to us. The inside dimensions were 10 1/2"H x 11"W x 21 1/2"L. The Parrott shell measures approx. 9"L x 3.63"Diam. A powder bag measured approx. 3.5" in Diam x 4.5"H. Do the math. Five shells were set on their sabot on each side wall of the crate. 11" - 7.26" left an empty space in the middle, approx. 3.74". 10 powder bags filled this space. Five on the bottom row: five on the top row. The spaces were filled with either tow or saw dust. Packets of friction primers and/or time fuses were placed on top. Then the box was sealed. Robert H. Gregory
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If I read your post correctly, Mr. Gregory, you are stating that the cartridge bags are NOT attached to the projectiles, which is my contention all along.
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Bob,
So you are saying the cartridge bags were in a compartment all by themselves? with the projectiles in another.
Regards,
John
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Joevann wrote:
> With all due respect, Mr. George, I think you're chasing Sasquatch here.
> There simply is no physical evidence to support your assertion.
Those statements indicate you have not followed my suggestion to read the past discussions of the subject in this forum. There have been several. Start with the discussions titled "Tie-ring Base shells", and "Those pesky little Xs."
The existing physical evidence includes:
1- iron-bodied shells which have an unmistakable Tie-ring on their base.
2- Mullane/Tennessee-sabot wooden dowels which have an unmistakable Tie-ring in the wood.
3- Excavated fired Read copper-sabot projectiles with twine and cloth preserved in the groove between the copper sabot and iron shell-body.
4- A cache of excavated unfired Schenkl shells with cloth "fossilized" onto the paper-mache sabot.
5- The many 3" Dyer sabots which have a long-armed iron sheetmetal "X" soldered onto the bottom of sabot. A large cache of unfired ones which was excavated at Fredericksburg included some showing cloth "fossilized" on the sabot around the iron sheetmetal X.
So, in addition to the on-paper wartime documentations, can you explain away all five of the above-listed physical evidence examples? For a starter, is the Tie-ring groove in the iron base of several types of Rifled-cannon shells merely present for "decoration"?
Please read all of the past discussions of the evidence (on-paper, and physical) for the existence of civil war "Fixed" ammunition for rifled cannons at this website, which are located in the Artillery category.
Regards,
Pete
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Dear Pete, I feel slighted that you didn't comment on mine and Robert Gregory's recent posts.
I for one do not intend to bore our members by rehashing all five of your points but will say this.
1. unmistakable, only in your opinion, no documentation or museum desplays.
2.Ditto as #1.
3.Hear say, lets see photos.
4.Hear say, produce photos
5.Just as many 3 inch Dyer projos that have the 'X" straps completely submerged.
So lets see real photos of all this evidence.
Respectfully,
John
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1. Here are two of the several types of iron shells with a tie ring in their bases. I have placed the lead sabot back on one to show how the tie ring part extended below the lead band.
(http://i1236.photobucket.com/albums/ff458/emike123/DSCN1628_zps72ea9939.jpg)
...and without the lead band for clarity:
(http://i1236.photobucket.com/albums/ff458/emike123/DSCN1629_zpse404684e.jpg)
As for #2, I believe Pete may be referring to some of the 3" Mullanes recovered from the Big Black River that show the tie ring groove still in the wood. I have seen them but do not have one of them to photograph, but Carl & Jimmy may have or have seen them to verify the existence of the groove. Not sure Jimmy if you know if remnants of powder bags were found with them in situ when recovered.
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I have one of the Mullanes from there but unfortunately it has no wooden block remaining below the sabot.
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Great photos Mike, all we now is a Civil War document illustrating and stateing the grooves are for fastening powder cartridges, same goes for the wooden block on the Mullane which keeps the thin sabot from bending to the rear.
Best Regards,
John
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Mike, are these not both CONFEDERATE Archer projectiles used only very early in the war as they were ineffective?
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1- iron-bodied shells which have an unmistakable Tie-ring on their base.
Answer: I will admit that some early Confederate Archer ans Federal James projectiles have what appears to be tie-on groove for attachment of cartridge bag. However, this would be an engineering and ordnance no-no. It would require the black powder propelling charge to be in direct contact with the body of the shell with no canvas between. This is just asking for an early detonation while ramming home the shot during the loading process. Isn’t it much more likely that the purpose was for the placement of a lubricated hemp rope to cut down on fouling of the rifling by the lead sabots?
2- Mullane/Tennessee-sabot wooden dowels which have an unmistakable Tie-ring in the wood.
Answer: The wooden dowel was to aid in uniform expansion of the base. Form follows function. You are reversing this engineering axiom and assuming the function from the form.
3- Excavated fired Read copper-sabot projectiles with twine and cloth preserved in the groove between the copper sabot and iron shell-body.
Answer: Again, lubrication.
4- A cache of excavated unfired Schenkl shells with cloth "fossilized" onto the paper-mache sabot.
Answer: The formula for constructing the sabots for Schenkl projectiles was lost with Schenkl’s untimely death. The exact composition of pulp, resins, and drying oils is still unknown and unduplicated. The Boston Foundry, tried many methods to keep their post-Schenkl sabots from breaking apart or swelling during transportation. One method was wrapping a sheet-metal band at the top and a sheet metal cup at the bottom. Another was gluing a covering of cloth to better hold the laquer, rather than cartridge paper as was previously used. Both methods gave less than satisfactory results without the original formula.
5- The many 3" Dyer sabots which have a long-armed iron sheetmetal "X" soldered onto the bottom of sabot. A large cache of unfired ones which was excavated at Fredericksburg included some showing cloth "fossilized" on the sabot around the iron sheetmetal X.
Answer: It is well known that the sheet metal ‘X’ was an attempt to keep the cast cup from stripping off in flight. This is a severely undesirable occurrence when firing over the heads of friendly forces. I have no comment on any ‘fossilized’ cloth. I didn’t see it.
Now, your theory of rifled ammunition with cartridge bags attached is still interesting, and the idea MAY have been attempted on a very tiny experimental basis. I can certainly see the advantage of loading in one motion. However, if so, it must have been a failure as it wasn’t generally adopted and is not mentioned in the literature of any country. As you are well aware, the United States was certainly NOT at the forefront of artillery development in the 19th century.
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Mike, are these not both CONFEDERATE Archer projectiles used only very early in the war as they were ineffective?
Yes, but more accurately they should be called Archer/Burton projectiles. Please read From Under Iron Eyelids chapter 10 and the Appendix with drawings of their projectile
Isn’t it much more likely that the purpose was for the placement of a lubricated hemp rope to cut down on fouling of the rifling by the lead sabots?
No, the diameter at the tie ring groove is 2" and the diametrer at the lead sabot is 3.3", much wider than would be filled with twine. Also, from the period drawings in the letters from Burton to Archer (see book), the twine with tallow is wrapped around the lead sabot, not the base ring
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I'll have to obtain a copy. The vast majority of my reference library is primary rather than secondary sources.
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Mike,
Burton's patent called for the sabot to be cordage over a wooden sabot.
Regards,
John
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Yes. The design in those preliminary drawings was complex with soft metal studs drawing on the Armstrong system Burton saw while self-exiled" to the UK as well as the wooden cup covered in twine.
In practice (eg., all recovered examples), there were not studs and a lead ring and some with a longer protruding iron tail had a wooden cup below it that fit like a donut with a tapered hole, flush to the lead band and also bottom of the projectile. But the lubricated twine was wrapped around the outside diameter, not the much narrower diameter tail groove.
Its a good book for topics folks on this forum are interested in and available in paperback.
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They would not have incorporated the four projections as this would have required a whole new rifling system.
Do you have any of the recovered speciments you mentioned that you can post?
John
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I have 12 different Burton/Archer projectiles. The two above included among them. All are in that 12 little Indians video I posted a month or two ago.
I have only seen one non dug one with the wooden "donut." It is not mine, but your friend in Kennesaw can possibly share pics of it with you.
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joevann wrote:
"1- iron-bodied shells which have an unmistakable Tie-ring on their base.
Answer: I will admit that some early Confederate Archer ans Federal James projectiles have what appears to be tie-on groove for attachment of cartridge bag. However, this would be an engineering and ordnance no-no. It would require the black powder propelling charge to be in direct contact with the body of the shell with no canvas between. This is just asking for an early detonation while ramming home the shot during the loading process. Isn’t it much more likely that the purpose was for the placement of a lubricated hemp rope to cut down on fouling of the rifling by the lead sabots?"
In the 1861 manual under the heading Fixing Ammunition (page 278) it states that when a wooden sabot is not used that a layer of tow was place upon the powder, thus being between the powder and direct contact with the shot.
"2- Mullane/Tennessee-sabot wooden dowels which have an unmistakable Tie-ring in the wood.
Answer: The wooden dowel was to aid in uniform expansion of the base. Form follows function. You are reversing this engineering axiom and assuming the function from the form."
I agree that the wooden dowel was used for uniform expansion. Why was the groove cut into the end? I'm not saying that is was used as a tie ring (no documentation for that), but there has to be a reason that it's present.
Regards
Dan
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Could the groove been used to control splintering? and thus help maintain shape. I am not certain how it could help spread pressure but instead support the very thin sabot from bending rearwards losing rotation.
John
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Hey guys I thought I would add a few pics of a 3 inch Mullane Shell that was in the cache from the Big Black River. The wood block has warped a bit but is in good solid shape. I'm having trouble putting all the photos on on post so I will do 3 posts.
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here is my second photo.
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Okay This is the final photo.
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What is the title of the 1861 manual to which you are referring, Dan? I have have several with that publication date. Since most manuals of that date make only passing mention of rifled projectiles (if any) I can only assume that the mention of tow would be refering to the cartridge bag still being seperate with no sabot being used. You can't tie a bag to a round ball with no sabot. However, in the case of seperate cartridges, the preferred method was to close the forward end with a wood cartridge block. Cartridge bags themselves were made of close woven wool and of only two pieces: a circular pices for the bottom and a rectangular piece for the end. I make no claim to expertise on Confederate ordnance. During my career, it was the one field of ordnance I never worked in. McKee & Mason seem to think it was for tying on a cartridge bag, and since it is wood, this in engineeringly feasible. Of course, Mckee & Mason also show Archer type projectiles having a wooden sabot covered with metal that covered the entire base of the projectile and would preclude the knob on the base from being used for anything including tying on a cartridge bag.
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Best Mullane I've ever seen! As John has said though, and a good woodworker will confirm, cutting a groove in a curved wooden piece is a common method of preventing splitting. The purfling on violins, guitars, and mandolins (the strip of inlay around the edge) is not just decorative. A groove has been cut to prevent splitting and cracking.
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Hearsay! Please provide the written historical records that say that splitting is the reason why the groove was cut in the wood part ;-) As you know, form follows function, not the inverse so please do not try to find a reason for that groove that is not proven in museum displays
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Hoisted on my own petard. However, I was referring to the groove on musical instuments. That I can definately prove. As to the groove on the Mullane I am willing to admit it could be either/or. Who knows what a coonass might try?
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Touche ;) Love you man!
Those Big Black River Mullanes are awesome aren't they? I need to get me one!
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Joevann,
The manual I was referring to is "Ordnance Manual" copy right 1861. It is under the section discussing the 32 pounder and 24 pounder howitzers. It talks about a method of using tow when sabots are not available.
There is no mention of rifled projectiles. It does show that was a method keeping the powder from coming in contact with the iron when no sabot was used. The bag was tied over the tow and over the shot. This same method of using tow could be used on rifled projectiles thus avoiding the "engineering and ordnance no-no" that you spoke of.
Dan
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Mike, go back and read my comment about the groove in the Mullane. I prefaced my statement with the word "could" which forms a question not a statement of "unmistakenly" fact.
Regards,
John
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The method with the tow refers specifically to shot, and the section only deals with spherical ammunition. Am I not correct?
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Yes
Dan
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Here is something that I think explains the "fixed" designations on shipping containers and returns. We must remember that the Ordnance Department not the Artillery Corps had control of labeling boxes and issuing ammunition. This would have been the controlling manual for this during the ACW. By this reference, rifled ammunition could be classified as "fixed", but that in no way means that the cartridge was absolutely tied to the projectile. This note is from page 48, which covers classification of ordnance and stores.
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Regarding the 20 Pdr. Rifled "Fixed" ammo crate, the powder bags were not attached before shipping. They were stacked in the middle of the crate, lengthwise. Thin lengthwise removable partitions may have been inserted to separate the shells from the powder. There is a good example of a Hotchkiss canister crate featured in Dean Thomas's book "Cannons" that show three lengthwise compartments. The canister lined the two outside walls and the powder bags were placed and stacked in the center section. The end panels were grooved to receive the partitions.
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Very interesting thread but have to say I'm a little disappointed in some of the replies. Pete is one of the Godfathers of artillery and has earned it through his many years of fieldwork and study. He always takes the time to explain in detail his thoughts on many topics within his area of expertise. I feel that he's being disrespected in this thread and hope it returns to a gentler form of debate. If I offended anyone or am out of line to say this its just how I feel.
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You big guys are so sensitive, Dave :'( , but in my opinion you are correct. We aim to share our views politely here and as one of the administrators, it is my job to guide folks toward civility as gently as possible. I have been very, very busy lately and not had the time to participate as much as I would like, nor monitor things 24x7, but I think we have sent some signals out to be respectful and follow the Golden Rule.
Nobody here is profiting from their opinions...it is all voluntary out of a love for the truth. We have never kicked anyone off the site, nor have we had to remove more than a couple posts in all the time.
We all live in glass houses in terms of our opinions and the courageous people are the ones who post them up. Lets not relegate folks to lurker status because we fail to put ourselves in the recipients' shoes when it comes to our posts. I know I posted something that insulted Speed Enforcer once and had to recant so it happens...
This thread has gone from highly educational all the way down into Alice's rabbit hole as far as I am concerned. Enough facts and views have been shared for people to draw reasonable conclusions. Time to move on to other topics IMO.
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This has been, however, a very rich and interesting thread, and we should have more of them. Pete is the acknowledged expert in the field, but disagreements by the other impressive experts here are welcomed, and I know Pete loves the fray as much as anyone. I look forward to more threads like this one.
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To All I may Have Offended,
I am certain the above constructive comments apply to me as I was one of the three major contributors to this posting. If I have not commented with civility with regard to the best interests of the Forum then I sincerely apologize.
My posts to this thread have been with good intentions to arrive at the facts to preserve the history of ACW artillery projectiles and their fuzes. In the future I shall endeavor to post with care.
Sincerely,
John D. Bartleson Jr.
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Attached you will find one photo of a Schenkl crate that held 10 rounds of 3 Inch shells. The packable interior dimensions of the crate were approximately 6" wide x 15" long and about 1/2" short of the height of a shell. The inside bottom and lid (not shown) had circles cut about 3/8" deep to keep the shells in place during transit. Each end of the crate was stenciled "3 INCH." There was no room for powder bags. The powder bags were shipped in a separate crate. - Bob Gregory
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That Schenkl-shell ammocrate is interesting, and I thank you for posting it, and the descriptive info. However, it does not disprove my position that the answer to the question of whether any civil war Rifled Cannon ever used Fixed-ammunition shells is "Yes." I have never said that ALL Schenkl shells were Fixed ammunition. I've posted several original civil war period dated-&-signed Ordnance Receipts which show SOME 3-inch Schenkl shells (and SOME 3-inch Hotchkiss shells) were issued to various batteries IN THE FIELD as Fixed ammunition.
Regards,
Pete
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Hi Peter,
We met at the Mansfield Show. Based on the comments that I have reviewed regarding the subject (different writers) it seems that we're all wrapped a little too tight or maybe a little too defensive. The beautiful example of a Shenkl crate that I posted was merely to broaden our understanding of the packaging of ammunition. In this particular example there was no room for powder bags. I didn't broaden the statement to include ALL Schenkl crates. Best regards - Bob Gregory
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Again, thank you for your input and photo contributions, Bob. That Schenkl crate is very interesting. It shows that sometimes the artillery projectile crates were address-marked to a specific officer on the yankee side. A Confederate one marked for 32-pounder shells which was excavated in an air-filled bombproof in the Atlanta siege-lines was stenciled-addressed to General Joe Johnston, CS Army, Atlanta.
Regards,
Pete
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I have attached a poor photo of the following crate taken 40 years ago. It is painted red with black lettering. The interior dimensions are 12 3/4" long x 12 3/4 wide and 11 3/4 high. There are three 1/2" slats running along the inside bottom to support the fuse plugs. Each end of the crate reads "FIXED AMMN, / 4 ROUNDS / 32 PDR. HOWT. / S. CASE SHOT." The crate was fabricated at the Watertown Arsenal. Regards - Bob Gregory
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I have attached a photo of the captioned crate taken 40 years ago. It is painted black with white lettering. The interior dimensions are 12 3/4" long x 12 3/4 wide and 11 3/4 high. There are three 1/2" slats running along the inside bottom to support the fuse plugs. Each end of the crate reads "FIXED AMMN, / 4 ROUNDS / 32 PDR. HOWT. / SHELLS." The crate was fabricated at the Watertown Arsenal. Regards - Bob Gregory
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I have attached a photo of the captioned crate taken 40 years ago. It is painted black with white lettering. The interior dimensions are 11" Width x 21 1/2" length X 10 1/2" high. Each end is stenciled 10 ROUNDS / 20 PDR, RIFLE / SHELLS FIXED / 1861 / TIME FUZE."
Additionally, one side was stenciled "FROM / WATERVLIET / ARSENAL"
The other side was stenciled "U.S. NO. 308 / COL. J. E. LEBLIE / CHIEF OF ARTY. / DEPT. OF NO., CA. / NEWBERN / NO., CA. / FROM N.Y. ARSENAL".
Regards - Bob Gregory
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I do not believe that the gunpowder bags were attached to the projectiles for one major reason. If the gunpowder bags were attached they would need to have some sort of strap around them attaching them to the projectile. The issue would be that when the projectile was loaded into the gun there would be no way to ensure that the strap did not block the touch hole (especially with a rifled projectile as it would rotate as it was pushed done the tube). If the strap did block the touch hole the punch would not be able to puncture the gunpowder bag and then the fire from the igniter would not be able to set off the charge. No reasonable artilleryman would accept such a system. Thus, the gunpowder bag could not have any obstructions on it and because of that it would be next to impossible to attached the gunpowder bag to the projectile.
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Hi McCall,
The year stenciled on the crate is 1861. The West Point Foundry was about 120 miles down the Hudson River from the Watervliet Arsenal. The early Parrotts had a sabot attached to the projectile that formed a groove, for securing a powder bag? There is enough space in the crate for 10 projectiles plus much more (powder bags). Do the math. However, I don't think the projectile was united with the powder bag for shipping.
Here's why! This particular 20 Pdr. Parrott projectile may have been from 8 7/8 " to 10 1/8 " long. The standard charge was 1 1/2 pounds of powder (see Civil War Ordnance: An Introduction, pg. 324). The powder bag was about 3.5-4" long which would make the fixed ammunition approximately 13-14" long. Ten of them just don't fit into the crate (period). So the 10 projectiles were packed separately from the 10 powder bags. How, I do not know. 10 can be divided in one way 2x5. The inside dimensions do not support any configuration of projectiles and powder bags that I can think of. However, spherical ammunition was packed tightly into the crate.
What's important to note is that the definition of "fixed" rifle ammunition has changed from that of "fixed" spherical ammunition which was one complete unit. "Fixed" here, means that 10 projectiles and 10 powder bags were shipped together in the same crate. Amen! Regards - Bob Gregory
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Thank you Mr. Gregory for your illuminating photographs. As you stated in your last sentence the term 'fixed' changed meaning over the years as did many ordnance terms. In spherical ammunition, it means the projectile is strapped to a sabot and either the powder charge is attached to the sabot, or (in the case of larger projectile) not attached but present in the crate for attachment. In the case of rifled muzzle-loading projectiles, it changed to mean everything needed to fire the gun was in the crate. In modern, breech-loading ammunition, 'fixed' means the projectile is attached to a cartridge case with a built-in primer. Terms do change with usage over time. 'Bouche' devolved into 'bushing'. I'm not arguing with you at all, and neither, I believe, is Dr. McCaul.
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My thanks to Bob, Joe and Pete and Ed for presenting all the views that have been discussed during this thread.
The following question has arisen from the unyielding opinions and in some cases, proof positive on both sides.
We all realize that projectiles having the cartridge case or bag attached to the projectile makes loading in the cannon moreefficient and much faster in that a step in loading is eliminated.
Now, wy didn't the arsenals make ALL projectiles 'fixed" ammnition"? Some projectiles have no provisions to tie on a powder bag, while a few others like the small Mullane and one or two Archers, have apparent "tie rings" sic.
To my knowledge no member has seen an unfired, non-dug shell with a complete powder attached. None of the artillery manuals address assembly procedures, nor any other descriptions of directing personnel on attaching such bags. Not even a description to guide field implimentation to assmble bag to shell.
Lastly, I hope no collector ties a powder bag to a shell to pass it off for sale as "fixed ammo". :)
Best Regards,
John
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To all,
I have read in either Holley or Gibbons that spherical shells having powder bags attached to their sabots have a paper cylinder and end cap covering the bag. Are they removed prior to loading?
I presume the cyhlinder and cap were placed on the bag to protect it from damage during shipping and handling.
Regards,
John
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Hi John,
Quoting the 1862 U. S. Ordnance Manual, pgs. 276-7 "For the greater security of field ammunition, the cartridges were covered with paper cylinders and caps . . . The caps for shells are stained black, for spherical case shot, red; for shot, not colored". I believe the words "greater security" referred to protecting the powder bag from an errant spark. Incidentally, I have seen remnants of the cylinder still remaining under the twine in about four examples not of shot, none were colored. If that is generally true, I would like to know how they could determine a shell from a case from a shot when the cartridge was stuck ball down in a limber ammunition box except for their position in the box. Regards - Bob Gregory
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Bob,
Thanks for your input. the balls were down and the paper cylinders and caps were stained black, red and no color. Just found out that the paper was removed prior to loading
P.s. Below is an interesting account that was sent tome:
"My gun was one of the last to get into position, coming up on the left. I was assigned the position of No. 2, Jim Ford No.1 The Minnie-balls were now flying fast by our heads, through the clover and everywhere. A charge of powder was handed me, which I put into the muzzle of the gun. In a rifled gun this should have been rammed home first, but No.1 said “Put in your shell and let one ram do. Hear those minnies?” I heard them and adopted the suggestion: the consequence was, the charge stopped half-way down and there it stuck, and the gun was thereby rendered unavailable.
Moore, Edward A. The Story of a Cannoneer Under Stonewall 1910"
Hey Jim Ford, the next time you should order "fixed ammo"! :)
Regards,
John
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Hi John,
That is true and it is discussed on the same pages that I referenced. Also, the Manual said, the cap could be pulled off the base of the cartridge bag and placed over the ball to reduce windage. However, that seems to fowl the gun and cause loading problems. Regards - Bob Gregory
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Bob,
Yes, I read the same comment about using the cap to center the shell.
when those men rammed home both shell and powder bag together at the same time they not only jammed their rifle but broke standing rules not to do so. I guess in the heat of battle one will try anything.
Cheers,
John
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To All Interested,
I know I have said that I ajm about through with this post but I keep runing into more data. If this has been cited before please pardon my redundancy. However, I found this interesting excert from the following:
Excerpts from Ordnance Memorandum #21:
Page 45 – Ammunition for Field and Mountain Service
“The projectiles are attached by straps of tin to a wooden sabot, to which is also fastened the cartridge-bag containing the charge for the 12-pounder and the mountain-howitzer, making together, a round of fixed ammunition. In rifle-guns, the cartridge is not attached to the projectile”
Cheers,
John
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Hurrah! That is what I have been trying to explain to the forum via. the interior space of the crate. In the case of the 20 Pounder Rifle crate stenciled "10 ROUNDS / 20 PDR, RIFLE / SHELLS FIXED / 1861 / TIME FUZE." Ten cartridges between 14-15 inches long could not fit into the crate, however, 10 projectiles and ten unattached powder bags will fit into the crate. The word "fixed" relating to rifle ammunition has evolved from the term used for spherical ammunition. That is, rifle ammunition "fixed" means that the projectiles and powder bags were placed into the crate together, but not attached. This method of determining the contents of the crate does not support the cliche "think outside of the box", instead I am urging the forum/collector to "think inside of the box." There lies the answer. Regards - Bob Gregory
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what do I know because I wasn't alive then, but it seems awfully dangerous to have filled powder bags loose in a shipping crate. Crates can fall over, get jostled on bumpy 1860 dirt roads etc and break the bags, or the bags untie. Then you have loose powder sieving down under the shells, which is a recipie for disaster of iron shells grinding against powder on those same bumpy roads. Even if the box was filled with a layer of tow between shells and powder charges, unless the charges were specially wrapped, or wood sectioned individually off, it seems pretty darn dangerous. But, then again, I have never seen a shipping box marked with just powder bags made up and ready to go........
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Hi David,
Good point, as in the Hotchkiss 3 Inch canister crate (see Cannons by Dean Thomas) there were wood partitions separating the projectiles from the powder bags. In the case of the 20 Pounder Rifle crate stenciled "SHELLS FIXED", the powder bags were in the crate. There is way too much room for just shells and the arsenals utilized every bit of space inside the crates. A powder bag not attached to the projectile would have been closed in the following manner. The extra material at the open end of the powder bag would have been twisted, turned down over the outside of the bag, then secured with twine. Regards - Bob Gregory
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To Pete and all other interested;
Last sentence for David,
I promise this is my last post on this interesting and informative thread. In doing some further research among the Ordnance Department, U.S. Armyh Ordnance Memoranda I ran across this most significant order from the Ordnance Committee:
Ordnance Memoranda No. 9 Excerpt
"Page 17
AMMUNITION CHESTS FOR FIELD GUNS.
The Board recommend- that there be permanently attached to each tray of the ammunition chest a tin or zinc box with a secure lid, especially for carrying fuzes and primers ; and that the ammunition for rifled field guns be not "fixed," but that one or two compartments be provided at the center or ends of the chest for cartridges ; these should be lined with tin or zinc to prevent the sifting of grains of powder among the projectiles ; and that each chest for 3-inch rifle should be so arranged as to carry forty rounds, and that model ammunition chests be made on the above plan for adoption."
Cheers,
John aka Bart ::)