Bullet and Shell Civil War Projectiles Forum

Author Topic: Modern Casualties from Civil War Artillery  (Read 20863 times)

misipirelichtr

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Re: Modern Casualties from Civil War Artillery
« Reply #15 on: June 11, 2012, 08:26:49 PM »
Anyone interested in this topic can find additional information at the link below - it goes to a discussion of deactivating CW shells, the chemical composition of black powder, and other relevant information posted on Harry Ridgeway's web site.  Makes for interesting reading.  I'm away from my collection of North South Traders, but I recall an extensive article in one issue on disarming / detonation of CW artillery.

http://www.relicman.com/artillery/zArchiveArt.zRestoration.00.htm

emike123

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Re: Modern Casualties from Civil War Artillery
« Reply #16 on: June 11, 2012, 08:35:04 PM »
Yep, I lived across the river for several years.  Gotta love DC logic.

Note in this picture they recently turned the cannons in Lafayette square to point away from the White House.  When you lived there they were pointed right at it!

emike123

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Re: Modern Casualties from Civil War Artillery
« Reply #17 on: June 11, 2012, 08:37:30 PM »
Here's the article Jimmy:

http://www.civilwarnews.com/archive/articles/07/projectiles_exp.htm

But I strongly disagree with the part about No “relic shell” that has been outside, in the ground or under water for 25 or more years, contains a live powder charge.

misipirelichtr

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Re: Modern Casualties from Civil War Artillery
« Reply #18 on: June 11, 2012, 09:12:06 PM »
Mike, I agree with you.  I've dumped black powder out of a 10 inch mortar shell and lit it.  Have to believe some shells are sealed tight enough underground to still be live.

Thanks for pulling this out and posting.

On this thread, do you know if the story of Lee Sanzo blowing up an oven drying a shell is true or Civil War collecting myth?  I've heard it from several sources - but all stories are consistent that no one was injured in the explosion so it was never a "public" story

And as an aside, heard any other reports on the Brandon show?  I've not heard from anyone who attended - have to believe the CW collecting community attendance was pretty low.

emike123

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Re: Modern Casualties from Civil War Artillery
« Reply #19 on: June 11, 2012, 09:30:22 PM »
I heard the Brandon Show stunk basically for our kinds of stuff.  Guy I spoke with bought a 3" Hotchkiss shell there and passed on the only other shell which was a $200 rough 20pdr Parrott.  He also bought a half blown Bormann and a base of another Parrott. Otherwise nada, but the rumor is they are moving it to Vicksburg next year.

The oven story is true.  What I heard was he put the shell in the oven to dry it out and "retired upstairs with his girlfriend."  Their time together was rudely interrupted by a large "bang" (sound that is).  He subsequently discovered his oven door was blown open and twisted some.

He was not entirely a violator of rule #4 above because he had the oven set on a low temperature.  It seems the explosion was not the powder but rather the tar matrix inside the ball.  Hence the relatively minimal damage.

No one was injured so this does not change the statistics stated above.  Still, an entertaining story that is worth remembering, and I admire the way he took care to make sure his girlfriend was out of the line of fire.  No doubt he told her she was going to get "galvanized."
« Last Edit: June 12, 2012, 02:56:25 AM by emike123 »

John D. Bartleson Jr.

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Re: Modern Casualties from Civil War Artillery
« Reply #20 on: June 11, 2012, 09:34:26 PM »
Sir and Mike,
    My friend told me the exact same thing, "it blew the roof off".
so that really confirms that 1 and 2 are the same incident.
Regards,
John

pipedreamer65

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Re: Modern Casualties from Civil War Artillery
« Reply #21 on: June 11, 2012, 10:05:50 PM »
Agree, probably the same incident.  A lot about Rick Swain's accident is anecdotal since all this time has passed.  I guess the two boys are still alive these days.  I don't think they were related to him, but were merely interested in Civil War stuff and hung around his place. 

I've heard the shell in the oven story as well and was confirmed as true, but didn't know who did it.

As far as powder in underwater shells go, according to Dr. Stanley South's book, he found a 15 inch shell in the Cape Fear River in front of Fort Anderson in the 1960's.  He removed the nwc fuze and the powder was so dry that he was able to pour all of it out.

I can also attest to powder being left in shells that were previously thought inert.  Using a bore light and copper wire I found two case shot balls in my collection that still had clumps of powder in them. 

We may never know, but I concur with the thoughts that Sam White was working on a shell that was drilled and considered empty.  I didn't know him well, but he wasn't a careless person.

CarlS

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Re: Modern Casualties from Civil War Artillery
« Reply #22 on: June 11, 2012, 11:41:28 PM »
I pinched my finger the other day moving a 13-inch mortar shell.  Does that count as an artillery injury?   ;D  It sure hurt!
Best,
Carl

Lamar

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Re: Modern Casualties from Civil War Artillery
« Reply #23 on: June 12, 2012, 01:43:46 AM »
From what I've been told, relicrunner is right about the Sam White incident. I think powder was spilling out of the drill hole, the grinder sparks ignited it and the lit powder burned back into the shell, and it exploded. It would probably be hard to recreate that situation. Pete knows all the details about what happened.

I have a very small projectile collection, but I had the same worries that Scott did. (It was a discussion Scott & I had that led to his calling the fire authorities in D.C. for their "helpful advice".) I live in a small city, am friends with the police chief & the asst. fire chief, so I wrote them a letter, explaining that I had projectiles at both my home & my office, & all of them had been made inert or were solid. I invited them to inspect my collection. I pointed out that a number of "experts" had seized & foolishly destroyed shells (including solid shot) in other communities, & I didn't want want them to fear & destroy my collection. The asst. fire chief recently took up relic hunting, so I think I'm in good shape.

Pete George

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Re: Modern Casualties from Civil War Artillery
« Reply #24 on: June 12, 2012, 02:01:05 AM »
Emike123 wrote:
> 1) There was a fellow in the ‘70s killed disarming what I think was a watercap fused ball using a power drill.
>  I cannot recall his name, but others probably do.

  Rick Swain, Kinston NC, 1978.  The shell was a 9" US Navy Watercap fuzed ball.  Rick was using a (vertical) electric drill-press, in his relic shop.  Frags went through the roof, but did not "blow the roof off," as erroneously reported.  The shellwall of that 74-pound roundshell was 1.7" thick.  Rick's error was drilling through its iron body for too long a time without backing the bit out of the hole for cooling, and not keeping water in the BOTTOM of the drillhole.  According to the teenager who was present, the shell began to "fizzle," and Rick only had time to yell "Look out!" before it exploded.  My EOD contacts have told me the ignition-temperature for Blackpowder is 572 degrees Fahrenheit.  A drillbit can get hotter than that when you use it continuously for (approximately) 60 seconds ...especially if the bit has become dulled.

> 2)  Tom Dickey in the video “Bombs in the Basement” refers to an accident where a friend of his named
> Sam (not White) and his son  standing nearby were hurt during a deactivation with a drill press.
 
  Tom's friend was Sam McLaren, who lived in the Washington DC area.  The shell was a Bormann-fuzed 2.9" Read-Parrott.  Mr. McLaren lost part of two fingers.  The incident happened in the late-1960s or early-1970s.

3)  In 2008 Sam White was killed apparently operating an angle grinder on the surface of a watercap ball in
> his driveway.

  The shell, as in the Rick Swain incident, was a 9-inch Navy Watercap fuzed ball.
 
> 4)  Lawrence Christopher was hurt in 2006 disarming a 20pdr Parrott shell with a hand drill in a shed next
> to his house.  His grandson was standing nearby, possibly holding a water hose on the projectile, and hurt
> in the hand but apparently not seriously.

  Lawrence was using an electric drill.  His older-teenage grandson was holding a waterhose on the shell during the drilling.  This incident shows water must be kept at the bottom of the drillhole, not just at its top.  Metal shavings clog the drill's flutes as it operates, pushing the water out of the bottom of the hole.  Also, the drill's spin causes the flutes to act like a propeller, pulling water out of the bottom of the hole. 

Additional incidents, due to extremely high temperature, not drilling:
  The "Lee Sanzo's Oven" incident occurred because the shell was a Schenkl Case-Shot.  It had already been drilled, having two drillholes in it.  Lee told me he was attempting to melt the asphalt matrix out of it.  When exposed to high temperature, asphalt releases explosive hydrocarbon gases.  The oven's burner ignited the gas.

  In the late-1970s, Tom Dickey paid a worker to melt the lead sabot off of an excavated Hotchkiss shell, which Tom had mistaken for a Bolt (Solid-Shot projectile).  That excavated shell turned out to have a very rust-encrusted Iron-Anvil-Cap West Point fuze in it, which Tom thought was merely a Hotchkiss Bolt's sharp-pointed nose.  The worker sued Tom due to injury, and Tom settled out-of-court.  Tom himself told me the details I'm telling you here.

  If you are not 100%-certain that a projectile is a Solid-Shot, check it on a PRECISION weighing-scale, such as a Postal Shipping scale -- NOT a typically-inaccurate household bathroom weigh-scale.  An actual Solid-Shot will always be appreciably heavier than a shell, or even a Case-Shot.  The precise weights of nearly every type of civil war shells and Solid-Shots are given in my book, and some are given in Melton-&-Pawl's paperback guidebook.

  I know of two unintended-detonation incidents in which a civil war shell was blamed in the newspaper reports ...but in both cases the shell turned out to be a World War Two era shell.

  Having kept up with the subject of unintended detonation of civil war shells for nearly 40 years, I am also aware that a small number (less than half-a-dozen) of civil war shells have exploded during Remote Drilling.  That is a noteworthy statistic in view of the fact that tens-of-thousands of civil war shells have been drilled.

  Despite exhaustive research, including Internet-searching of multiple decades of Newspaper Archives, I have not found a single report of an EXCAVATED civil war era artillery shell exploding from merely being dropped,  Nor, even from as "provocative" an action as being hammered-on.  (Relic-diggers are notorious for bashing the rust-crust off of their shells with a hammer.)  Apparently, not a single explosion has resulted from either of those two kinds of provocations even when the EXCAVATED civil war shell has a Percussion (impact-detonation) fuze.  At least, not during the past 100 years.

  Clearly, civil war artillery shells are a FAR less dangerous class of Ordnance than 20th-Century artillery projectiles.

  That being said, I do understand why the Police and other government officials have the attitude they do, telling the public to call the police if a shell is discovered.  The average American cannot distinguish between a highly dangerous 20th-Century shell and a comparatively harmless civil war era shell.  Frankly speaking, nearly all Policemen and Soldiers cannot do that.  It is our duty to educate them about the actual Facts.  Some of them, if approached properly, will listen.  For example, the local Police and the Fredericksburg and Richmond National Park Service personnel now contact me when they encounter a shell.  Please encourage your local police department (and battlefield park personnel) to do that also.

  I will have some interesting news to announce to this forum on that subject next month.

Regards,
Pete
« Last Edit: June 12, 2012, 11:12:53 AM by Pete George »

Garret

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Re: Modern Casualties from Civil War Artillery
« Reply #25 on: June 12, 2012, 02:04:20 AM »
Most of us here understand that these shells aren't going to blow up by themselves, but for lay people, no amount of reassurances are going to help.  If anyone has ever perused a copy of Warman's Civil War Collectibles identification and price guide (you can get it at Barnes and Noble), the author John F. Graf states that "Many cartridges and artillery rounds are live!  That is, they can explode.  Know what you're acquiring before you take it home.  If you are out digging, bear in mind that the artillery round you are unearthing could explode.  Take extreme caution.  Only allow experts to disarm a projectile.  There isn't much of a learning curve that allows for mistakes."  This is followed by 14 pages of various shells with a description of each and a value.  He doesn't do much to sway a non-collector from thinking that any part of our hobby is safe.  Here in Hawaii, every so often WWII ordinance is recovered on the beaches and it makes big news, clearing the beach and ending up on the front page of the paper and on the news.  Agree with Scott, unless the general public is made more aware of our hobby it's better to keep it under wraps.   I know I stated it on the previous thread, but people disarming shells by hand don't do artillery collectors any favors when they are killed or hurt in the process. 
"Suppose you were an idiot.  And suppose you were a member of Congress.  But I repeat myself."  Mark Twain

emike123

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Re: Modern Casualties from Civil War Artillery
« Reply #26 on: June 12, 2012, 02:39:05 AM »
I had forgotten about the incident with Tom Dickey's helper.

Revised 50 year #s: 5 incidents with 2 fatalities and 7 injuries
« Last Edit: June 12, 2012, 02:57:26 AM by emike123 »

mccaul

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Re: Modern Casualties from Civil War Artillery
« Reply #27 on: June 12, 2012, 07:10:25 AM »
EOD work is a pass/fair course where one mistake fails you.

scottfromgeorgia

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Re: Modern Casualties from Civil War Artillery
« Reply #28 on: June 12, 2012, 08:30:04 AM »
From what I've been told, relicrunner is right about the Sam White incident. I think powder was spilling out of the drill hole, the grinder sparks ignited it and the lit powder burned back into the shell, and it exploded. It would probably be hard to recreate that situation. Pete knows all the details about what happened.

I have a very small projectile collection, but I had the same worries that Scott did. (It was a discussion Scott & I had that led to his calling the fire authorities in D.C. for their "helpful advice".) I live in a small city, am friends with the police chief & the asst. fire chief, so I wrote them a letter, explaining that I had projectiles at both my home & my office, & all of them had been made inert or were solid. I invited them to inspect my collection. I pointed out that a number of "experts" had seized & foolishly destroyed shells (including solid shot) in other communities, & I didn't want want them to fear & destroy my collection. The asst. fire chief recently took up relic hunting, so I think I'm in good shape.

That's true, Lamar, and I appreciated your sage advice.

Lamar

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Re: Modern Casualties from Civil War Artillery
« Reply #29 on: June 12, 2012, 11:40:28 AM »
My "advice" came close to having the authorities save us by seizing (& destroying) your collection - good thing your inquiry was made on behalf of a "friend".

I enjoy the advantages of a small town, where the "authorities" are much more friendly.

For reasons no one knows, a CS 12pdr common shell, designed for a Bormann fuse, is in a display case in the local courthouse. I took it to Pete to make it inert, and gave the clerk a letter (that Pete edited for me) describing the shell, explaining how it "worked", etc., and making it clear that it was disarmed. I also put a sticker on the ball, stating it was disarmed. I still worry that a do-gooder will "discover" it & call the bomb squad (that happened several years ago at a Georgia college).

http://www.ajc.com/news/cobb/live-civil-war-cannonballs-602538.html