Question about Copper or Brass Plate below Main Fuse on 12 pdr

[callicles]

Thanks guys for the replies.  However, because I'm uneducated regarding the "disk," I'm gonna need some addititional help.

1.  It seems the concensus is that the "disk" was part-and-parcel to the fuse, not the shell or case-shot;

2. As a consequence, the disk served as a water seal to the fuse, not the shell/case shot;

3. The "disk" was punched either at the factory or in the field (that's how I read the posts here -- some say one thing, others say another).

Unless I've mistated or misunderstood this thread, the disk was not related to the shell itself. 

Query: what was used to prevent moisture getting into the shell itself?  Would that be the fuse (in which case the fuse was put in at the factory and was never intended to be removed) or was there something else which kept the moisture out of the shell which was not the disk in question, yet allowed the fuse to be removed/absent from the shell until firing?

I hope my question makes sense.  I re-read it and confused myself!

[John D. Bartleson Jr.]

Second reference on the preparation of Case Shot quoted from the U.S. Army Ordnance Manual:
"Spherical Case Shot.
The shot having been cleaned and inspected, the upper part of the fuze-hole is tapped to receive the fuze; the small hole is tapped to receive the plug.
TO FILL THE SHELL.
MATERIALS.—Spherieal, leaden balls, calibre .69 inch; sulphur; linseed-oil IJTENsms.-1 kettle ; I 'tulle; 1 iron funnel, the neck chased with the threads of a screw, to fit the small part of the fuze-hole.
FILLING THE SHELL.—Cover the lead balls with linseed-oil, and fill the shell with them, pushing the upper balls aside with the fingers or a stick, to geb in as many as possible. Warm the shell gently, and screw the neck of the funnel into the fuze-hole; pour in the melted sulphur, filling the shell.
To MAKE THE CHAMBER FOR THE CHARGE.—Chuck the shot in a lathe; screw the funnel into the fuze-hole, to protect the threads from being injured by the auger, and with a common screw-auger bore a hole in the axis of the shell to the bottom. Diameter of the auger, .75 inch.
Lemke,. the shot and strap it; paint the ring around the fuze-hole red
To CHARGE THE SHOT.—Fill the chamber with musket-powder, ramming it slightly with a wooden drift and light mallet; screw in the iron plug, leaving its top flush with the bottom of the large portion of the fuze-hole, and lay over it a thin leather washer with a hole in the centre ; fill the hole in the plug and washer with rifle-powder, punch 4 or 6 small holes in the tin disk in the bottom of the fuze; put a little white lead on the threads of the fuze, and screw the fuze firmly into the shell.
Fix the spherical case shot the same as round shot."
   I don't see how we can speculate further on how and when the holes are punched in the Bormann magazine closing disk.
One the fuse threads are coated and screwed into the shell fuse hole against the leather gasket this provides the air tight integrity.
Cheers,
John

[John D. Bartleson Jr.]

Second excerpt from the U.  S. Army Ordnance Manual of 1862.
as a follow on to my last post on this thread I have located how the Bormann fuse is charged with powders after being cast from lead and tin as follows:

     MATERIALs —Mmealed powder,    musket powder; rifle powder,   disks of   tin.    UTENSILS — A strong screw-press, annular charger the size of the ring, annular drift,   flat drift round drift.
Take the Mould in which the fuze was cast; place the fuze in the parts of the Mould containing the screw and the upper or graduated side, and secure the Mould by a ring driven on it.
Draw up the piston, and fill the charger by pressing it into the mealed   powder contained in a shallow pan. Place the charger over the groove, and force down the piston, transferring the powder into the fuze. Insert the button in the magazine and the pin in the priming-hole, to preserve their shapes: place the ring on the powder, and with the annular drift force it down by means of a strong screw-press, bringing the ring flush with the  surface of the fuze: rivet the ring in its place with another drift. With-draw the button and pin ; charge the priming-hole with rifle-powder and fill the magazine with musket-powder ; cover the magazine with a disk of tin, and rivet it in place by means of first a flat drift and then a round one which turn down a part of the metal of the fuze over the disk.
Remove the fuze from the Mould, place it in a screw-chuck made to fit it, and turn off in a lathe the lower surface smooth and to the proper thickness. The powder of the fuze is now perfectly sealed up from the air. The fuze may be varnished..”


     This is the sequesnts of events in charging the fuse and sealing it so it may be passed on to the shell filling and final assembly as covered in my previous posts.   So the tin disk is crimped into place, not solderd as stated in Gibbons. You can relax fellas, it will not ignite now.  I wish I had found this one first.
Cheers,
John

[CarlS]

Too bad you didn't find something more detailed and clear.      

Thanks for sharing that with us.   Very informative.  I also appreciate the great information brought to light by callicles starting this thread and the great contribution of knowledge by you and Pete.  Of course, Mike's great examples pictured are much appreciated too.

[6lbgun]

Terrific thread!  Well documented facts.  Thanks.
Carl,
     I notice on your pic of the bottom of the fuse some remnants of the part of the bottom disk that covered the rifle powder.
If there is enough to get a measurement of it's thickness with a mic or caliper  I would appreciate that information.
Thanks
Dan

[CarlS]

Dan,

If you are referring to the fuse below, there isn't any disk.  What is around the magazine (hole in the center) is a very beveled lip.  Iwould get a variety of thickness measurements depending on where I measured.   

If you are referring to the other fuse there is no lip anywere; it was quite clean.

[callicles]

First off, thanks John.  I've printed your responses and put them in my file.  Though I'm too stupid to understand it (and I'm being sincere when I say that -- not sarcastic or anything), I'm smart enough to know that it's the real deal.  Thanks.

It is painfully evident that I play pee-wee football and you guys are in the NFL.  It is sad that I'm not sure about the differences between "shot" and "leadened balls."  I also have no clue of the differences between "sulphur" and "linseed oil," "musket powder" and "rifle powder," "white lead," "annular charger," and so on and so on . . . .

I'm just going to revert to a Forrest Gump question: is it resolved that boremann fuses were at all times inserted into the shell (via factory) to keep moisture out?  If that is the case, then the 90-degree-wedge theory on a Boremann fuse, as being Yankee-made ONLY, needs to be re-thought, because I have a CS shell with a 90-degree-wedged fuse.

I know I've persued this topic a bit too much, and I apologize.  I'm at the point where I'm banging my head, but becoming resolved to shelve the entire issue into the "Historically Unknown" file.

Again, thanks John, Pete, CW, emike, and everyone else here for the information. 

[John D. Bartleson Jr.]

Dear callicles,
     I will do my best to answer your questions.  Lets take your first set of questions prior to my quotes from the U.S. Army Ordnance Manual, keeping in mind the Manual provides official guidelines and instruction for casting the fuse, charging (filling) it with three different types of powder, mealed powder for the annular ring (timing powder train), rifle powder for igniting the musket powder in the magazine and crimping the tin disk into place to make the final seal for the magazine and the entire fuse now being water tight. Also remember that people will sometimes make their own alterations without or with permission.  Gunners in the field were instructed to insure the Bormann fuse was screwed in tight and even to insure the disk had been perforated.  Depending on how long the the projectile had been assembled, the white lead (plumbers putty) will hardened to the point that the fuse wrench slot would apt to be damaged. Also the water tight seal would have been broken. Additionally, the fine rifle powder that was placed into the support plug and inside the hole of the leather gasket, when it was in place, would have been disturbed.  The confederacy used the same Ordnance Manual as the U.S. with some minor changes.
Answeres to your first questions:
     1. true, 2. true, 3. disk perforated at arsenal during assembly of shell, 4. tin disk related and part of fuse, Query: a. fuse threads was coated with white lead (plumber's putty/sealant) and is last moisture barrier to fuse.
Last set of questions:
    a. shot - type of projectile (spherical or conical), i.e., solid shot, case shot and shell.
     b.lead balls - the lead fragments, sometime rejected rifle bullets,  placed inside case shot and cannister to increase kill factor.
     c. sulphur - a natural element melted down and poured into case shot to stabalize the lead balls and probably adds to the incendiary effect. sulphur is an ingrediate in making black powder.
     d. linceed oil - probably used to lubricate the lead balls to make loading easier.  The same oil you used on your catchers mitt.
     e. mealed, musket and rifle powders - Black powder made with different percentages of sulphur, charcoal and potassium nitrate and other materials. they have different textures and buring rates.
     f. annular charger - I have no idea what it looks like but is used to place the mealed powder into the annular ring.
School is out.  Please if anyone wants to add or edit be my guest.
All the Best,
John
P.s. Pete I outdid you on the length of this one. Please forgive typos.
 

[John D. Bartleson Jr.]

callicles ;
Hopoefully the below drawing will clear up some question concerning the fuse and its different parts and where the different powders are placed. Please double click the red file name under the image to get a nice enlargement you can also 'save' it for your files all be it a quarter of the original size.
Regards,
John
Carl;
  Thank you for your patience in supling the amazing views of the Bormann.

[John D. Bartleson Jr.]

Mike or Pete,
 any chance the bormann fuse has left hand threads?
John

[emike123]

No

[Pete George]

  Mike and I were typing our answer at exactly the same minute.  He beat me by giving a one-word answer ...which I seem to never be able to do.  ;-)

  I'm agreement with Emike.  Insofar as I'm aware, all American-made Bormann fuzes had right-twist threading.

Regards,
Pete

[John D. Bartleson Jr.]

To All Interested:
     I hope to close out my comments on the Bormann Time Fuse by presenting a illustration of how and where the burning time fuse makes its connection to the magazine. As an example if the gunner perforates the outer ring at 4 seconds and fires the cannon, the propellant flame ignites the mealed powder train at the 4 second mark.  It then burns in both directions traveling 1 second to the 5 second mark and stops,  traveling  4 seconds and ignites the rifle powder which burns rapidly over and down to the musket powder magazine which explodes, blowing away the tin disk and igniting the rifle powder in the suport disk and on to the black powder main charge. Perhaps the drawing is a bit to much, however, for the new member it should be clearer now.
All the best,
John