Re: Clay Gun at High Bridge

[John D. Bartleson Jr.]

Will someone tell me the name of 3inch breech loading cannons at the High Bridge fort?  Thank you.
Regards,
John

[John D. Bartleson Jr.]

Did a British 3 inch Clay breech-loader rifle show up among the armament or a 3 inch Armstrong breech-loading rifle?
Regards,
John

[CarlS]

John,

Perhaps if you have the NSTCW article you might read that to see if it indicates the armament.  I don't have it handy and don't have time to dig through the official records which likely reveal what was in place.  But even the records will likely just report counts and caliber without much more detail than that especially since it was a Rebel fort.  We know there were 3-inch Armstrong shells there at High Bridge as well as other 3-inch shells.  What they were intended to be fired from might be a guess.

[emike123]

Carl:  That fellow who wrote the Artilleryman article on High Bridge (and reached out to you about some of the shells you had for sale on our site) identified them as being from a different gun.  "Clay" may have been what he said, but I was driving in the Upper Peninsula when we talked so it went in one ear and out the other.  I don't have time to look the article up right now, or perhaps his conclusion has come post the article.  Pete talked to the fellow as well.

[dlw1610]

Toured High Bridge Museum last Saturday.  Michel Lucas, owner/ curator of his own privates museum, also gave a walking tour of the battlefield including the approximate site of where General James Dearing was mortally wounded.

Check it out online.

[John D. Bartleson Jr.]

Thank you Carl,
   I hope to have answer by the week end.
John

[John D. Bartleson Jr.]

Carl and others,
    It is not a guess any longer.  There were no Armstrong rifles in the batteries. There was only one breech-loader there, a 3 inch Clay rifled cannon.   Those lead sheathed projectiles are not Armstrongs, but Clay shells.  The rifle was an invention of William Clay of England.  At least two Clay rifles were known to be sold to the South.
    These guns were also sold to Peru in its 1860s armament. However, the shells sold to Peru are made slightly different in that in addition to the lead sheath there was three lead bands incorporated.  I have PDF and Word documents to support my comments if any are interested just email me, they are too large for the Forum.
     Will someone tell me who is in possession of the Clay shell recovered at Dutch Gap and which battery may have fired it and how I may contact the owner?
Best Regards,
John

[CarlS]

John,

Very interesting.  it appears the clay rifle at High Bridge was removed and captured at Danville, Va. (SW of High Bridge).  It also seems it was scrapped during WWII.  Also of interest the article states that no breech loading Armstrong guns were sold to the US or CS since they were bound by British government contracts not to sell abroad.  For more info:

http://books.google.com/books?id=twcQGSi1F7QC&pg=PA206&lpg=PA206&dq=civil+war+clay+rifle&source=bl&ots=4CsvSwnAE3&sig=gIU_evaA4qR9CroPaYG6d2iO-n8&hl=en&sa=X&ei=KL5_UqPnO8udkAfgiIDwDQ&ved=0CDUQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=civil%20war%20clay%20rifle&f=false

Were the lead bands on the Peru shells like a bourrelet? 

Personally not familiar with any Clay shell from Dutch Gap so will be very interested in any response you get on that.

[John D. Bartleson Jr.]

Carl,
  I may have the wrong pattern of shell that was the only one recovered at Dutch Gap.  It might well be the copper studded shell developed at the Woolwich Laboratory and termed the Woolwich System with contracts let to the EOC at New Castle on Tyhne. Someone square me away on this.
   The bands appeared as bourrelets but being a breeh loading shell these bands would have been forced into the grooves at loading, whereas a bourrelet rides the lands.
Regards,
John
Note: The bolt shown below was sent to my by Adm. Reynaldo Pizarro Antram , Peruvian Navy. The admiral had this replica made from a drawing  that was in Peru.  The Clay rifle and these slightly modified projectiles were sold to Peru by the U.K. during the 1860s.

[John D. Bartleson Jr.]

Carl,
  thanks for the excerpt from Hazlett's book.
to quote him, no Armstrongs breechloaders were sold to the Americas. They were sold to Peru.
What is odd is that England didn't scrap the breech loaders until the end of 1865-66 when they returned to RML (rifled muzzle loading) until after our Civil War.
   so did Armstrong sneak sales to the rebels before the end of our war and development and adoption of the RML copper studded projectiles?  Hummmmmm!
Regards,
John

[John D. Bartleson Jr.]

Parden me guys I should have started a new subject.
John

[John D. Bartleson Jr.]

Gun compliment at High Bridge:
High Bridge, on South Side Railroad: Major V.Maurin
     1- 20pdr Parrott
     7- 6pdrs
     5- 12pdr howitzers
     2 -10pdr Parrott
     4- 3" rifles
     1- Clay rifle
     1- 16pdr Blakely gun

[CarlS]

Very cool.  All these calibers were found at the site and are seen in the image of the piles of shells in the other thread.

[John D. Bartleson Jr.]

     What this information reveals is that the attached shell is not an Armstrong after all.  It was identified by Abbot as an Armstrong simply because it has a lead skirt similar to the Armstrong RBL lead covered projectile. However, I believe that authors that have placed it in their respective books as an Armstrong will disagree. 
     I really believe that the attached shell was made by the C.S. to fit the Clay rifle as it is totally different than the ones used in Peru during the 1860s and shown in the current thread about Clay. It also uses a C.S. copper fuse adapter. Oddly enough the Peruvian Navy also made their shells for the Clay rifle.
John

[emike123]

Obviously, a really kindhearted and noble soul owns that shell.  By the way, it is the same one pictured on the cover of the hardbound Melton and Pawl.  The "110" Tom Dickey mark is for the high Bridge location.

Here is a picture of the fuse adapter that went to it.  8tpi, rht, 0.985 diameter at the threads.  Exact one shown on top right of page 46 in Jones' fuse book.  I think Pete owned this at one time.  If you recall, Pete, was it in the fort loose (ergo not used) or from a fired projectile somewhere around there?