Odd Hotchkiss

[CarlS]

Hello,

For all the Hotchkiss lovers out there, there is a neat Hotchkiss for sale on eBay:
      http://www.ebay.com/itm/221052168636
It looks post ACW to me but I've not seen that style before.  The lead sabot is quite long as an overall percentage of the shell length.  The bottom of Civil War 3.67 Hotchkiss shells for the 20 pounder Parrott also have very distinctive very rounded bottom base cups as seen in the example on the page the auction references in the 1980 edition of the D&G book.  But the auction example does not.  It does seem to have the 5 lands-n-grooves expected on a 20 pounder Parrott rifle but they seem a bit narrow to me.  Anyone have any details on this?

[Pete George]

  Well... when I clicked on the link you posted, my Norton Antivirus immediately showed this message:

Fraudulent Web Page Blocked
 
You attempted to access:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/221052168636

This web page is a known fraudulent web page. It is recommended that you do NOT visit this page.

For your protection, this web page has been blocked. Visit Symantec to learn more about phishing and internet security.

[Pete George]

  I figured out a way to get a look at it.

  In my humble opinion, the "sabot" is bogus.  Excavated iron body, with no patina at all on the sabot ...and (most important of all,) the "rifling-marks" don't twist.

  So, I think somebody fabricated the item, by casting a fraudulent sabot onto an original iron body.  I say fraudulent because of the addition of fake rifling-marks.

Regards,
Pete

[John D. Bartleson Jr.]

For those of you who might have anti virus problems the following is a copy and paste from the site:

"JUST OBTAINED THIS AT AN ESTATE SALE HERE IN KENTUCKY....CAME FROM THE EARLY COLLECTION OF DR.BROWN, AND WAS PART OF HIS EXTENSIVE COLLECTION AT CAMP NELSON, KY. FROM WHAT I CAN DETERMINE TALKING TO KNOWLEDGEABLE PEOPLE, IT IS CLOSEST TO FIG. 115,PG.141, DICKEY'S BOOK-20 LB. HOTCHKISS, 9+ INCHES, 3.56 DIAMETER, CASE SHOT, LEAD BAND. THIS ONE IS IN INCREDIBLE CONDITION! HAS THE FULL SABOT WITH PRONOUNCED GROOVES! YOU CAN STILL SEE THE DATE ON THE BASE! NO FUSE......THREADS ARE IN EXCELLENT CONDITION! WOULD BE HARD TO IMPROVE ON THIS ONE EXCEPT FOR ADDING THE FUSE! REAL BEAUTY !"
John
    
 
 
 
 
 

 
 
 

[CarlS]

Maybe your antivirus has an issue with my shortened URL for the auction.  Here is the full URL:
     http://www.ebay.com/itm/221052168636?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649
Let me know if this one works.  Sorry about the difficulties.  I use MS Security Essentials (which is free from MS) and it has no issue with the short link.

Looking closer at the bottom of the shell I acutally think it has 6 lands-n-grooves; not 5.  I also don't see any patent information on the base but it can be faint at times.

Pete: I agree there seems to be no twist to the rifling.  If someone cast that sabot on there they did a very good job.  When you zoom in the lead looks to be factory quality.

[Pete George]

  In the other sideview photo at the auction-page, the IMHO bogus sabot is still SHINY lead.

  If anybody here doesn't like my analysis of this Ebay item please explain the dug-rusty iron body in combination with shiny lead.  Electrolysis-cleaning can remove the patina from lead, but Electrolysis would also remove the rust from the iron body ...so what you see in the shiny-lead photo cannot be the result of Electrolysis.

  The seller says the shell's diameter is 3.56-inches, but I think he's quoting from a book reference.  The shell's nose looks more like a 3-incher's profile to me.  I hope somebody will contact the seller to ask him for the item's actual diameter.  It should be easy enough to measure across the base-cup.

  The shiny-ness of the lead shows even more clearly when you use the "enlarge" function on the photo at Ebay.

[emike123]

I remember seeing that shell for sale as is in the auction listing he mentions.  It was on Memorial Day in a KY town South of Cincinnati so I can vouche for that as well as this was how it looked then.  There were some mortar balls in the sale but nothing special.  I remember thinking this one was odd looking, but there were no measurements included in the online listing of the original KY auction.

[pipedreamer65]

Seems like an awful lot of trouble to go through for perhaps limited gain.  Despite whatever flaws may exist, someone did a good job if that sabot was added at a later date. 

The seller has been on radar in the past for certain things, namely belt plates of questionable nature.  I don't think of him as a bad guy, but more like a victim of poor buying and selling choices.

[John D. Bartleson Jr.]

Does anyone know this Dr. Brown to ask if he recast the sabot?
John

[emike123]

I think a Ouija Board would be the only means to contact Dr. Brown.

[John D. Bartleson Jr.]

I don't know the man it was just a suggestion.   If the seller bought it from the Brown collection and you saw it in a show, Then the seller is perhaps lost in his thoughts?
John

[pipedreamer65]

The ebay seller lives in kantuckee

[alwion]

He also tried to sell it a few weeks ago. $700 plus and did not meet reserve.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/RARE-CIVIL-WAR-HOTCHKISS-ARTILLERY-SHELL-20-POUNDER-RARITY-10-/330743972917?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4d01e08435